Links: Does Murphy have a point?
Below are links to today’s game stories from all four of Tuesday’s Class AA quarterfinals, but I’ll start with something that seemed to catch your attention.
After his team’s suffered its third loss this season to Mount Vernon, New Rochelle coach Bill Murphy expressed his frustration with Section 1’s seeding system, explaining that it gives teams the same amount of bonus points for playing an elite Class C team as it gives for an elite Class AA opponents. His example was North Rockland, the No. 7 seed, earning two bonus points for losing to Class C Tuckahoe, while New Rochelle earned the same amount for each of its losses to Class AA Mount Vernon.
Murphy wasn’t upset that his team played Mount Vernon for a third time. He was upset where they played. He believed his team was among the best in Class AA and deserved to at least reach the County Center, but the Huguenots fell short of that goal with Tuesday’s loss.
“If you’re on one side of it, it’s great. But if you’re on our side, it (stinks). We’re a really good basketball team right now. We should’ve at least gotten to play them at the County Center. It just isn’t right.”
I can see both sides of the argument. Section 1 tried a number of solutions to the problem of properly reward teams for playing difficult schedules. If you remember, Mount Vernon, for example, began falling lower and lower in the seedings because it began playing challenging games out-of-state. There have been a number of systems in place to counter that type of inequality in recent years.
The last two solutions tried to directly credit teams for their strength of schedule. The problem has been how. First, teams were credited with a bonus point for each class that separated it from its opponents. So…under that system, Tuckahoe would earn seven points (the regular four for a win, plus three for playing a team three classes above) for beating North Rockland. The problem with that was high-quality small schools like the Haldane girls could earn seven points for beating inferior Class AA teams.
After that was scrapped, Section 1 came up with the current solution. Is it perfect? No. But in this case, you’d rather a team earned bonus points against a team like Tuckahoe than a 2-16 Class AA team, right?
Objectively, that’s hard to argue.
Where I agree with Murphy is from a complete subjective standpoint. Right now, I believe what he does, although he didn’t say it in so many words: New Rochelle is the second-best team in Class AA. I don’t think any team has improved as much from December until now. The Huguenots looked terrific the last two games. They played Mount Vernon extremely tough yesterday, not letting the game slip away despite widespread foul trouble.
Case in point: New Ro fell behind by double-digits at halftime yesterday and its five starters had 11 fouls combined. Throw in the return of Isaiah Cousins and Jarrel Marshall for the second half and another blowout seemed inevitable. Still, the Huguenots played Mount Vernon even the rest of the game. It was a terrific effort.
However, even in the current playoff seeding system, New Rochelle hurt its own cause by losing to Mamaroneck. The Huguenots would’ve been seeded fifth had they won that game. It would’ve moved them ahead of Carmel, Arlington AND North Rockland and into a quarterfinal game at Clarkstown South. They only have themselves — and a strong effort by Mamaroneck — to thank for that.
Without that loss to Mamaroneck, New Ro would had four justifiable in-state losses — Mount Vernon (2x), St. Mary’s and Kingston — and a better reason to gripe.
On to the links…
MOUNT VERNON 74, NEW ROCHELLE 59. When Mount Vernon eventually did enough to win in the end, the leading scorers looked all too familiar: Isaiah Cousins, Jarrel Marshall and Qwadere Lovell were the only players in double-digits. But the Knights entire margin of victory can be traced to a four-plus minute span to end the first half while Cousins and Marshall were on the bench. They outscored New Ro 19-2 to end the half thanks in large part to contributions of unheralded seniors Givvion Jones and Jamel Knott. Jones finished the game with eight points, nine boards and three blocks and Knott had eight points. But those two keyed that pivotal run along with junior Josh Doughty, who provided a spark off the bench.
FOX LANE 52, NORTH ROCKLAND 39. Last night, I called it the most famous Fox Lane dunk since Taj Finger put the exclamation point on a 2004 Class A championship with his long-armed tomahawk at the County Center. It has to be right? Here’s the situation: Fox Lane hadn’t scored in nearly six minutes and its offense was stuck. An 11-point lead had been trimmed to 44-39. Will Trawick had the ball on the right wing and faced a double team. He looked up and saw just seven seconds on the shot clock. A second later, Trawick faked a pass and saw the two defenders react. He quickly split them, drove and threw down a thunderous one-handed dunk (pictured left mid-flight) to release all the pressure. Fox Lane went on to score the game’s final eight points and secure its first County Center berth since Finger and co. in 2004.
MAHOPAC 76, ARLINGTON 75 (2 OT). You can’t face much more of a hole than Mahopac did an expect to rally. Down 15 at half and 18 at a point in the second half, Brendan Hynes, Zach Ankier and a never-say-die home crowd led the Indians back from a seat on the offseason doorstep to a trip to the County Center. After the comeback sent the game to overtime, Ankier had the Bird-esque moment in the first OT, stealing the ball from Arlington when all seemed lost and finding DJ…er, Mark Vaccaro…for the tying basket. It was all Hynes in double overtime. The junior was fresh after sitting much of the first half in foul trouble. He also proved to be the perfect symbol for just how much of a surprise it is Mahopac’s has returned to White Plains. Hynes wasn’t even on the roster last year; now, he’s the team’s go-to guy. Obviously, it’s a whole different year.
CLARKSTOWN SOUTH 63, CARMEL 58. With its first trip ever to the County Center on the line, South received a spark from freshman Connor McGuinness, who hit a big 3-pointer to end the third quarter and put his team within a point. It was all Vikings in the fourth quarter, and McGuinness helped put his team in a very familiar position. The last South team to advance this far was the 1978 squad. Connor’s dad, Joe, the Albertus Magnus AD and former Albertus and Tappan Zee coach, was the point guard. Jeff Brown was the leading scorer. Now — after 27 points on Tuesday — Mike McCahey chases Brown’s scoring record. The senior is just 34 points shy of matching it. And who did Brown score his final point against? You guessed it: Mount Vernon.
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I BELIEVE THAT ALL TEAMS KNOW THE SYSTEM WELL ENOUGH TO SCHEDULE GAMES THAT WILL PUT THEM IN GOOD POSITIONS FOR THE TORNAMENT,FOX LANE AND MAHOPAC PLAYED IN STATE AND HAD BETTER DRAWS IT HAPPENS EVERY YEAR,NEW RO DOES NOT HAVE TO GO TO KENTUCKY EVERY YEAR,STAY HOME A BUILD POINTS FOR PLAYOFF TIME,NO NEED TO CRY OVER SPILLED MILK
Haywood I am psyched to say that I’ll be watching former MV star sherrod wright play tonight at northeastern. Hopefully I see another game winner
Josh,
I think you have done a great job all year with the blogs and your coverage, but I think you were wrong in even addressing the seedings today. The day after the AA quarterfinals you could have been writing about Mahopac’s great comeback, or the fact that Clarkstown South is going to the County Center for the 1st time or Fox Lanes big win. However, you chose to start with whether the seedings were unfair to New Rochelle. It sort of diminishes those teams accomplishments because Of the whining of Murphy from New Rochelle. And you can sugar coat it anyway you want, but it’s nothing but whining. Take your loss like a man and move on. The bottom line is that this was a down year for New Rochelle. I know you think that New Rochelle was the 2nd best team in AA, but I have seen all the teams play and I think that any of the three teams that made the County Center besides Mount Vernon are just as good as New Rochelle. New Rochelle would have trouble with Mahopac’s hustle, Fox Lane would be tough for them because of their overall size and against South, McCahey would still be the best player on the floor. I happen to agree that the way teams are seeded needs to be looked at and maybe changed a little. However, in my opinion, the day after 4 teams qualify for the County Center, we should be celebrating their accomplishment, and not writing about the whining from one coach.
Grow up Bill Murphy and New Rochelle…the system is what it is and you just disrespected your entire team and their outstanding effort by complaining after a tough loss. Your lucky you have a job in NR. Get back in the gym with your kids and prove you belong at the top of AA. I wonder if you would complain if you lost to anybody else? I dont see any other Section 1 coach crying about the system. You win or you lose end of story. Maybe if you didnt bench your 2nd best player for the 1st half maybe you would have pulled off a great upset. Grow up and get your kids better for next year…end of story!!!
I think a lot of us agree last night the sectional championship very well could have taken place at MV. New Ro against MV is always a big game, regardless of where it gets played. Sure it would have been better at a neutral site, but it would have just ment a few hundred more fans would have gone home broken hearted. Sooner or later you have to go thru MV to raise the Gold Ball. Weather is beautiful, break out the clubs.
BILL,
I HOPE THEY PLAY WEST VIRGINA,IN THE TORNAMENT
How did Coach Murphy let Malik Gill get away?
I love Murph”s quote ” were a good basketball team right now ”. Well they were a good basketball team in the beginning but you couldnt get anything out of them. Please stop crying about the system, its worked great for you these past 10 years.
[...] Read more… Previous Post » Links: Byram, New Ro earn revenge; Carmel ends nine year drought; and more… Next Post » Westchester natives earn top CHSAA honors [...]
I think that their is an easy seeding solution to this problem for all of the classifications that no one has mentioned. It eliminates this idea that everyone should make the tournament. I think everyone needs to realize that this is not little league where everyone should get a trophy. Too many teams make the tournament to begin with.
Here is the possible solution which makes the most sense for teams qualifying for the tournament and seeding (and keeping teams from the same league playing each other early). Let’s take AA for an example. The tournament every year is a 16 team tournament…no more, no less. Teams make the tournament based on your league record. For this to occur, you go to leagues that are made up of only teams with the same classification. Break the leagues up into 4 leagues. The top 3 teams from each league make the tournament. You have 12 teams right there. There are 4 at large teams that are selected based on “RPI” system. Not that difficult to do. Your top team (league record) from each league is the #1 seed for one of the four “regions”. The second place team from each league goes to a region based on RPI (but cannot go to the same region as their 1st place league team). Continue this for the 3rd place team. The first game between league opponents could only happen at the county center. Just a thought. It was the high school system I grew up with. You knew how you were getting in the tournament and it put more emphasis on your league games.
The link below will take you to the 2011 football season highlight video of Yorktown Huskers Nick Mariano QB #1.
https://vimeo.com/36581321
Here you go
4 leagues
League 1 Winner
vs
League 4 4th Place
League 2 2nd Place
vs
League 3 3rd Place
This way if one league has the 4 best teams, they all win their group of 4 and get to County Center. Kind of how the Girls A bracket ended up with Albertus, TZ and Pearl River all in the same league made the County Center
Hoops,
Sounds like World Cup/Olympic style a bit. I dig and second you approving to Director Jen.
Until mvernon leaves sect.1 and goes independent it really doesn’t matter bc everyone is playing for 2nd. The fact that mahopac and fox lane are in the semis doesn’t show that the system is bad but more that westchester bball is not good.
Mvernon needs to do what lutheran does. Sorry but it stinks to watch a talented team like mvernon play 6 competitive games all year.
Just curious… would mcahey play (start) on a mount Vernon squad? I have seen him..but not against that type of talent.
winitfor… McCahey would start on Mount Vernon without a doubt.
Josh,
Could Mt Vernon leave section one? Would the CHSAA let them into their AA league? I know C stands for catholic but westchester public makes exceptions? Mt Vernons addition would really help that AA be the best in the country. Just wondering. Thanks.
Josh,
Could Mt Vernon leave section one? Would the CHSAA let them into their AA league? I know C stands for catholic but westchester public makes exceptions? Mt Vernons addition would really help that AA be the best in the country. Just wondering.
This was our year to get to the finals… Pok is Class A so Coach Murphy did not have to play them this year. Stop crying
beastchester09… I don’t think the CHSAA would accept Mount Vernon, nor do I think Mount Vernon would have any interest leaving Section 1.
Don’t get your hopes up,The Vern’s not leaving Sect.1 so quit w/ the bizarre scenarios! What needs to happen, is the other hoop programs to Step Up. Fox Lane looks like they got a couple players. Step-Up show us what you got. NewRo could of controlled their destiny, but there’s obviously something wrong there. This yr was a bit of an anamoly. Normally NewRo’s a tougher obstacle & before them it was WP that competed well. Step-Up Sect.1 & quit whining about seatings. MV is very good if not Grest because they Work Harder & probably Care More..geesh!
I was thinking the same thing when I read this. The only way for things to get better is to get rid of Mt. Vernon from Section 1. Send them to a different Section/League where they can find better competition. I don’t think its fair for the current AA schools to know they are going to get beat by atleast 20-30 points when they are scheduled to play the Knights.
@ Reality Check, the only reason Mt. Vernon is on another level than everyone in Section 1 is because of their program that they have down there. Those kids eat and sleep basketball. Thats all they have! Because Mt. Vernon is well known for crime, they try to keep kids out of trouble. Other teams in AA, or in Section 1 for that matter, they have good programs, but they care about other sports as well. Kids are not out in a school yard until all hours of the night, playing bball 24/7. It’s kind of annoying to keep hearing about Mt. Vernon year in and year out. Something needs to be done. Put the Knights in a more competitive league, plain and simple!
Hey NothinButNet: by down there I take it that you are not Fr S Westchester, but your comment wreaks w/ snobbery! All the kids have in MV is basketball! Are you for real! Your elitism is disgusting! You’re what’s wrong w/ America! Bail everyone out! MV’s too good in hoops…let’s get rid of Em. Stop treating Kids like Faberge Eggs! You want to get good, play the Best! We should of gotten Roosevelt out of the Section in football during DeMatteo or NewRo during Rice! You should read your post before hitting send. It makes you look Real Bad. Hope this Reality Check helps you become a better person!
What did I say that was wrong?
You’re right MV’s better at hoops because of their program. Your wrong about Mt Vernon the City being well known for crime! MV is well known for the Knights, Denzel, Heavy D, Sean Combs, Michael Imperioli, the Williams Bros, McCrays, Ben Gordon, & so much more. You’re wrong about the current Sect.1 AA schools know they’re going to get beat by 20-30. Go ask NewRo who played at MV last Fri & would of been in the game even more than they were if they don’t sit a kid fir the 1st half who scores 25 in the 2nd. You’re wrong about MV being a 1sport school. The QB Fr the football team contributes well to the hoop team, the track team has elite athletes & I know an awesome kid going to a great school on a baseball scholarship. Finally, your overall tone is Wrong! Give everyone a ribbon, let them all make it to the CC. Westchester Magazine listed the 50 best things about Westchester. The only sports related one was the Knights! They are the Pride of MV & for many the County. Bye the way, Yorktown’s dominated lacrosse in Sect.1 for yrs. I think they should play in a leagueon LI, they’re just too good for Sect.1 & every year the other Section teams know they’ll never get to States. How’s that sound?
Listen to your tone! Are you going to tell me Mt. Vernon isn’t known for its basketball and its program. Do not tell me what I’m right or wrong about. Who do you think you are to do that? I am sure they are good at other sports as well, but basketball is the be all and end all. You can’t tell me that Mt. Vernon has not pretty much dominated Section 1 Basketball for the last 20 years or so, maybe even more. And I already knew about Denzel and Heavy D and Diddy. They are definitely great successes, but it has nothing to do with the subject of basketball. I never said everyone should make the CC. Why shouldn’t Mt. Vernon move out of Section 1 and play in a city league?
HEY PAL THEY SHOULDN’T MOVE OUT BECAUSE YOU WANT THEM TO! AS FAR AS MY TONE; THATS WHAT YOU GET GROWIN UP IN A TOUGHER PLAYGROUND THEN YOU! I HOPE YOU’RE FROM A SCHOOL THE KNIGHTS PLAY! I LUV TO WATCH THEM PUNISH YOUR ILK! YOUR WRONG OH SO WRONG WRONG WRONG
Guys, It costs a lot of money to become an independant program and go the road and I doubt the funds are available. Most of the MV fans would love to see more games against better programs and not blow outs, but it is what it is.
I think MV’s presence makes section 1 a better place, I would think teams work harder getting ready and also get a good idea of what they have to do to play at the next level. Running away from the Giant, not a good lesson.
Oh Praise the Lord, Praise the Lord for Wood & Spacecadet to come along & speak some sense. I gather some of the elitests in finer communities of the outer reaches of Sect.1 would have the Knights exiled! It would be nice to play more games vs better comp, but alas MV is but 4sq miles of Greatness located in a Hoops wasteland I gues….bet the folks in NewRo & WP don’t agree w/ this elitism garbage. Hey folks next yr might be a down yr like 2005! The last time someone else took the Gold! You should kiss the ground each day, that you can step on the floor w/ a Real Program…gee willikers!
Reality Check i think you should stop talking right now! Thanks
ANY AND ALL Mount Vernon alum [self included] are incredibly PROUD, as they should be, for the cradle to grave basketball program they have built over the course of decades. I was there [like Moses] at the genesis of this phenomenon [mid-late 60’s] when one could always expect a dogfight with White Plains, New Rochelle, and at times Yonkers/Gorton or Roosevelt. This is perhaps the four year period before they started to pull away from the other schools.
As an outsider it would be all too easy to interpret PRIDE as ARROGANCE…[and I don’t doubt there are those in these 4 square miles of ‘more than hoop dreams’ who don’t know how to handle this gift of unparalleled success with dignity]......most M.V. regulars on this board like haywood, cadet, etc. demonstrate respect for others views, regardless of whether they agree with them or not.
Mount Vernon is an integral part of Section One and belongs in Section One…they should not be punished and exiled for their immense success. They should and they do make sure that they schedule as many opponents of their caliber as possible whether it be NYC teams or tournaments out of state. That is their burden and responsibility as an elite team.
In regard to the 4 square miles of hoops and/or crime….....stereotypical mud-slinging and hating….will not ever tarnish the broad base of culture, intellect, esthetics and athletics that permeate this city. Let me toss out a few names off the top of my head….
Dick Clark [yes, that Dick Clark ] of American Band Stand fame A.B. Davis graduate
Art Carney [aka Norton on The Honeymooners]
Mickey Fuchs Vice President of SONY CORP. A.B. Davis graduate
Linda Fairstein Asst. District Attorney Manhattan classmate of mine
Andrew Zambelli Asst. to Gov. Cuomo [Mario that is]
Mark Gould professional jazz trumpet player/professor Emeritus Julliard School of Music, friend & classmate
Ken Singleton, don’t have to explain, friend & classmate
Ossie Davis & Ruby Dee amazing Broadway & Hollywood actors who lived a few blocks from me
[AND PLEASE NOTE THAT I AM SURE THAT NEW ROCHELLE, WHITE PLAINS, YONKERS, ALUM CAN COME UP WITH THEIR OWN CAVALCADE OF STARS AS WELL]
So please let’s get away from trying to shove Mount Vernon into some type of negative box they do not deserve any more or less than other comparable cities/towns in the Tri-state area.
THERE I FEEL BETTER ALREADY
p.s. Haywood..I hope you took note that I didn’t even have to use the word, JUXTAPOSITION, in this post!!!
Haywood watch your mouth calling people dumb! Both of you should be taken off this blog
I’m shaking in my boots! Is this a joke? Who’s kiddin around? I know one of my homeys are playin. Seriously. Good one, but I figured out that no one could be this “ignant” a rational person couldn’t act this way. I imagine some frustrated reject stamping his feet up & down!
Nothin but hot air,
Change your diaper,your breath stinks
Hey Wood: I figured it out…it’s that kid that always got picked last for kick ball in 3rd grade!
Hey Haywood its ChiefWildEagle check out the video i ran across on YORKTOWN Qb Nick Mariano.Posted Above
REALITY CHECK,LLLLLLOOOOOLLLLL
RUN AND GUN ,WOW
haywood… Please do not insult anyone’s intelligence. You know you can’t do that on here. Thank you.
You guys are really something else! I will not lower myself to your level. Here I am expressing an opinion, like everyone else, and you people take it to a more personal level. Grow up
Josh, I appreciate it. Thank you
NOTHINBUTNET,
WHEN YOU SOUND A CERTAIN WAY,YOU TRIGGER OFF,NEGATIVITY THINK BEFORE YOU SPEAK.
JOSH,I UNDERSTAND
I really don’t think I said anything negative at all. I apologize to you and everyone if I came off that way.
NOTHINBUTNET,
EXCEPTED,ENJOY THE GAMES
lol at how quickly this convo went south.
MVHS65 Incredible Breakdown!
One must always think, before he hits send!
Statesman: you got to expect it to go South when the convo starts w/ Murph crying about having to play the qtrs @ MV. In effect his whining brought out the Irrational!
MVHS65,
GREAT POST,I EXPECT NOTHING LESS FROM YOU,I MUST REMEMBER :
SOFT SPOKEN WORDS,BREAK DOWN IRON GATES.
haywood & reality check…......
thanks for the props…fortunately, though my body is beginning to fail me mainly thanks to 40+ yrs. of basketball related injuries, my mind seems to be getting a bit stronger.
Also I’m not so quick to lose my cool and instead try to understand where the other guy is coming from. As a few wise men and women have said, “Let us learn from our differences.”
MVHS,
Stop it. You’re the most spry 59 year old out.
I agree w/ your closing thought. We have to celebrate our differences b/c the fact that we are gives us something we have in common. Couldn’t help but join this blog’s Socratic School of Thought.
Reality,
The irrational must have been salivating something to rant on. Came out for the head in full force lol.
STATESMAN,
HARLEM LINE TO WHITE PLAINS,LLLLLLOOOOOLLLLL
Yessir, just like last year!
In the future there will be a league w/ cyborg baseball players for the Yankees to play in
65…another great post. and a tough act to follow. Going forward maybe you should be the official closer of all threads..
I’ll be upstairs opposite the bench Friday night if you make the trip, and will make it a point to find you.. You too Wood, States and the rest of the crew.
cadet…not as zealous and committed as you, haywood, reality check and others seem to be. Every now and then I do like to toss in my thoughts, particularly when folks start taking uncalled for pot shots at Mount Vernon.
Right now I’m 50-50 about being at the County Center for the semis Friday….cadet…just look for the tall, gray haired, mid-60’s geezer wearing a fedora.
South is gonna dominate mv
we will touch base next week, I sit with about 10 to 15 regulars.. Most from class of 70 to 75
Josh,
Why dont they just account for league games? Seems to be the simplest way to seed. Win your regular season league games and get the #1 seed with set tiebreakers like head to head and point diff etc.
It is way to hard to quantify all the different non league schedules and naturally a MV team will take an L or 2 playing in national tourny’s. Obviously a team with a weak non league could not be compared even if they are undefeated. Throw out the non league games and judge only by league. Its the only logical answer. Why make it so hard?
Come on MVHS65 you got to make the semi’s to see if it’s FL or Pac we’ll beat for the Gold.