I’m off today and very much excited about finally watching a Giants came from the comforts of my home. But I’ll be keeping up to date on today’s two games, which should help unwind the ever-unwinding web that is the CHSFL.
You can follow the action on the New York Post’s website. The guys at the Post will be blogging the games LIVE on their blog.
Iona takes on a St. Francis team that lost a thriller to Mount last week. Fordham hosts Xaverian in a matchup of unbeatens.
Sunday’s games -
Iona Prep 52, St. Francis Prep 6
Fordham Prep 27, Xaverian 17
Iona Prep 52, St. Francis Prep 6: At Mitchel Field in Brooklyn, Sidney Weston rushed for five touchdowns and 130 yards on just 12 first-half carries to help Iona build a 35-0 halftime lead, according to the New York Post. Dan Fischer scored on a 56-yard touchdown run for Iona Prep. Brian Anderson added a 20-yard interception return for a TD.
Fordham Prep 27, Xaverian 17: At Fordham University’s Coffey Field, Max Kinder threw for 290 yards and two touchdowns, according to the NY Post. Mike Seminario had 108 yards rushing.
117 Comments
10960, since no one has tried to answer your question of,
“What Criteria do you guys use to classify a league as the BEST?”
I will give you my thoughts, though you did not ask, lol! By asking a few questions, here would be my criteria and in order:
1. How good is the best team in the league and how far did they go in the playoffs? More credit given to teams who go to play teams outside their own league and win i.e. State playoff format.
2. How is the competition within the league? For example, does the league have 4 to 5 “very good” teams that have a shot at winning the title and maybe 3 additional “competitive” teams. Based off 2009 results, both leagues in Long Island would fit this bill.
3. How many wins do the best teams have outside the league? Case in point when AA North says they are the best in AA, tough to argue when they have a commanding win/loss record outside their league.
4. Enrollments of the best Teams within those leagues– of course with “recruiting”, enrollment carries less importance for those teams that do “recruit”, but overall, no one can deny the affect of a large enrollment does for a team.
4(tie). How are the Coaches on the best teams in the league? As Prince pointed out, that too often gets over looked when comparing teams. To me that gets more importance over what offense or defense is considered more “complicated”. Case in point there are times in the NFL where you here new D-Coordinators simplifying things, since the defense is too “complicated”. New Ro very effective with that “dinosaur” of an offense called the Wing-T.
6. What do the “experts” say? By “experts”, and again this is in order:
a. Other HS Coaches, especially outside the League
b. Sports reporters who cover more than just one league
c. Reporters covering that specific league/College Coaches/Scouts/Former players
7. How many players go on to play college? This has minimal value to me, but still has value when looking at who is the best.
These are the questions and the criteria I would use to determine which league is the “Best”. And please do not be fooled, if you see your League is the best from 3 on down. Again this is in ORDER of importance with #1 the most important, #2 the second most, I think most get the point.
As you see, there are a lot of variables and is why in any year, any one league has a realistic shot to claim “We are the Best”.
JUST A FACT,
I read your post, good criteria
Just a fact,
Well thought response. I think you’re missing two essential components.
1) What each team does non-conference
2) the strength of the league schedules
3) how many upsets are there in the league yearly
1) One of the things that makes the CHSFL so strong is that every year, several of their teams go play strong teams upstate or out of state. St Anthony’s for several years played one of the top 4 NJ catholic powers or played the top Philly catholic schools. This year St Anthony’s played the defending large school state finalist in PA, State College and won on the road. Very impressive. Six other CHSFL schools played out of state or Buffalo schools – Holy Trinity – W, Farrell – W, CTK – L, Xavier – L, SJBS-W and SJB – L.
The archaic NYPHSAA rules limit non-conference schedules. I’m not entirely sure if New Ro gets one non-conference game per year and chooses North Rockland or if they don’t get a choice. If they get a choice and they choose North Rockland they are short-changing themselves. They should play a St Anthony’s or get a top regional opponent to really test themselves. They’ll see North Rockland every year in the sectionals anyway if North Rockland advances, why play a team twice that isn’t a real threat when you can play a top regional team? Maybe you or prince can fill me in on that one.
2) The CHSFL schedules their teams brilliantly in the AAA. The schedules are power-rated, so the #1 team will only play #2-8. #1 won’t play #9-12. #12 will only play #4-11, never playing #1-3. This makes the schedule for the top teams as strong as possible and makes the scheduling for the lower rated teams more reasonable and prevents lopsided games.
In LI, while there usually are 5-6-7-8 very solid teams in the AA every year, they are split into 2 counties with 14 teams in each county. In other words, the 5-8 very good AA teams in LI don’t all play eachother. The top team in each county will likely play the top 3 teams in their own county, but will only see the top team in the other county if they make the LI championship game. The schedule among the 14 AA teams in each county are randomly selected as far as I know, so the #1 team could be playing #14 in the regular season. To put it plainly, even if LI has an equal amount of top teams as the CHSFL, they won’t all be playing eachother due to the way they schedule between counties. As we all know, Section 1 AA is a disaster scheduling-wise. If Section 1 wanted to create competive balance they’d create a super-league comprised of the top 2-3 teams in AA South, West and North. That 8-10-12 team super league would be excellent and prevent the 43-0 blowouts that new Ro puts up 4-5 times a year. Imagine if New Ro’s schedule was WP, No Rockland, Mahopac, JJEF, Arlington, Mahopac, Carmel/Cl North/Ketcham every year.
3) Literally every week in the CHSFL there is a decent sized upset. Reason being, the teams are generally so evenly matched that upsets happen regularly. Upsets in Section 1 AA, very rare. There just isn’t a much competive balance outside of the AA North (which is a weekly free for all!). In my opinion, regular upsets tends to mean great competitive balance.
You and Prince both mentioned coaching. Its easy to think your own coaching is top notch, maybe its true. New Ro’s coaching staff is excellent. Casarella is a very accomplished coach. There are other good coaches up in AA North as well, obviously. But keep in mind, LI has some very accomplished coaches as well in the AA and A. As far as the CHSFL, St Anthony’s coaching staff (Rich Reichert) is every bit as accomplished as New Ro’s, frankly St Anthony’s does more with less gifted athletes. St Anthony’s doesn’t usually have more than a couple kids running 4.5’s and 4.6’s while New Ro seems to have a handful every year. St Anthony’s tends to be more about offensive execution and a strong defense. This year, for the first time in awhile St Anthony’s doesn’t seem to a Sr blue chip recruit, but their team is as strong as ever. Chaminade’s head coach Stephen Boyd was an All-American LB at BC and a long-time NFL player. Tom Pugh Holy Cross’ head coach has been there for over 20 years. Iona’s coaching staff does a great job with one of the more complex offenses around. Holy Trinity and St Joes by the Sea have SERIOUS ground games/stout defenses that is largely a matter of execution and good coaching.
I might get some argument with this statement, but both the CHSFL and LI teams have much, much more developed passing games compared to Section 1 AA. One could argue how much coaching has to do with that, but clearly a HS football team doesn’t have a well-functioning passing game year after year without some outstanding coaching going on. Not sure why more Section 1 coaches don’t put in more complex passing games like most of the rest of the state.
hoops fan… The schedules in Class AA are similar to the design of NFL schedules. The top team in each league plays two first-place teams from other leagues. Second-place teams play second-place teams, and so on.
For example, New Rochelle’s non-league games were against opponents from AA-West and AA-Central, meaning North Rockland and Mamaroneck. I think Mamaroneck was seeded first in AA-Central because it has the largest enrollment.
Bottom line, I don’t believe New Ro has any scheduling flexibility.
I agree with you about the complex, passing-based offenses in the CHSFL. I believe Section 1 teams see passing offenses as too risky, but I’m just guessing.
There are very few that use passing as a serious part of their offenses. One that does is Carmel, where I went to school. I believe that fact (and big, talented offensive lines) are the reasons why Carmel probably ranks behind only New Rochelle and North Rockland as Section 1’s best programs the last 10-20 years. The only reason Carmel has so few championships is because the other two have won them all since DeMatteo left Roosevelt. New Rochelle and North Rockland simply have the most talent, year in, year out — at least on average.
Josh,
I agree with you 100% about Carmel. I think what helps Carmel even more so than having a complex passing offense is that very few other teams they play do, so defenses have a harder time with it. The defenses in AA North are probably at least somewhat accustomed to seeing Carmel’s passing game, but the teams in South, West and Central almost never see it. I was discussing this yesterday re: New Ro. If a team (New Ro) rarely if ever sees a serious passing game it is VERY hard for them to properly prepare for it. I think this has hurt New Ro in the NYPHSAA playoffs when they’ve lost or struggled with less talented teams over the years that employ the pass more than New Ro is accustomed to seeing. Just my opinion, I could be wrong. You can tell the players what to do, but if they haven’t seen it live before, its hard to make the adjustments and have the correct instincts. A scout team can’t simulate a great passing game. When Carmel beat New Ro three years ago with Schilling there is no doubt that New Ro not being experienced with that kind of passing game was a big factor.
Thanks for answering my question about New Ro’s scheduling inflexibility. I think its a shame. One of the reasons that I’m lukewarm on New Ro so far is that they haven’t been tested and often aren’t through Section 1. I think a program the caliber of New Ro’s – one of the top in NYS year to year, should have the ability to have at least one elective game a year. Maybe its against Iona, maybe another regional power, either way, a program as good as New Ro should be allowed to play someone every year outside of Section 1. I might get some argument from some with this statement, but I think New Ro has their ups and downs from year to year, but since they’re relatively unchallenged in Section 1, its hard to tell how good they really are. If New Ro could play a New Canaan, Greenwich, Iona, St Anthony’s, etc, every year early on it would give a much better barometer of how good their team is. Again, just my opinion.
Hoops fan… I agree. I spent some time with the Stepinac basketball coach tonight and we talked a lot about scheduling. I think it’s a shame that the best football, basketball and baseball teams in this area can’t get together. One open date wouldn’t hurt anyone in football. And I think some of these programs would want to prove that they are the best in the county. I also think it’s a shame that the Westchester/Bronx schools don’t all play in the CHSFL. How, between Fordham, Mount, Iona and Stepinac, were there just two games head to head this year? There should be six, year-in, year-out. I understand the point you make about power scheduling, but you would still have a couple open dates each season.
I don’t 100 percent agree with you about New Rochelle-Carmel. New Ro struggled in the first game with Shilling’s mobility and because he had very good receivers that made a couple big plays. In the championship it was a far different story. The one year New Ro had a battle with John Jay was because New Ro couldn’t contain Ryder Bohlander, a Division I-AA talent (similar to Caleb) who just turned out to play lacrosse because he was an all-American. John Jay’s best passing team was the year before with Dan Sheeran, but that’s the year North Rockland won the championship.
From what I can recall (and I saw all the games but last year), New Ro didn’t struggle with Monroe’s passing game. The worst game the New Ro passing defense ever had was against CBA. And CBA’s QB and WR were pretty darn good.
I think games New Ro struggles in are when it can’t move the ball.
Hoops, out of conference is my #3. Assuming the entire league is AA. I used AA North just as an example of how stepping outside your league/conference and winning helps prove your strength.
For LI, I could be wrong, but just going by the results of 2009 this is what I saw:
Nassau w/ enrollmentsRecord
Freeport ….................. 171110-2
Farmingdale …........... 14838-3
East Meadow ….......... 12487-2
Syosset …................... 16456-4
Massapequa ….......... 19686-3
Baldwin …................... 13085-5
Oceanside ….............. 15055-4
Hicksville …................ 13725-3
Suffolk w/ enrollmentsRecord
William Floyd …........... 231110-2
Sachem North …........ 173210-1
Northport …................ 15367-2
Brentwood ….............. 39875-5
Lindenhurst …............. 17595-5
Connetquot …............. 16845-4
Longwood …............... 23244-5
Patchogue-Medford … 20403-5
Patch. beat William Floyd & Connnetquot
Longwood beat Patch & Lindenhurst
As you can see, each has close to 5 very good teams and approx 3 competitive. I am basing all this on records, i have not seen any of these teams play, just have heard a lot of smack over the years. Pretty tough league by the looks of it!
Sorry to all that it got squeezed like that. It did not look that way when I pasted it in. I would not have posted.
The last numbers are the win-losses, the numbers before that are enrollment, if anyone cares, lol!
Agreed that it would be better if there were more games between Stepinac/Iona/Mount/Fordham. Stepinac hasn’t played Mount in years, was a great rivalry for a long time. An extra elective game would be great in the CHSFL…but one game (CHSFL) is still exponentially better than zero (Section 1) for teams and fans.
I think the second New Ro/Carmel game that year was more of an expected result. Unsurprisingly, it came after New Ro had seen Carmel the first time. The first game, just my opinion, but I really thought New Ro struggled with Carmel’s open offense compared to the run based offenses they always see. New Ro was far, far more talented than Carmel that year and should’ve won the first game easily all things being equal. The year of that great John Jay/New Ro game, JJ did ride Bohlander (no pun intended), but I still felt they opened it up more than anyone else on New Ro’s schedule. Not a coincidence New Ro had a hard time with them. I don’t know how well I remember this detail from that game, but the ability for JJ to pass certainly could’ve limited New Ro overloading guys in the box to stop the run, hence opening it up a little more for Bohlander.
I might have the team name mixed up, but I think it was Saratoga Springs who had a bunch of roll outs last year in the NYPHSAA playoffs that gave new ro some problems. I think it was a 21-14 game that New Ro could’ve easily been 2-3 tds better than in terms of pure talent. You reference New Ro’s struggles to move the ball in the playoff losses, I agree, one could argue thats partially a result of their offense that some teams are able to game plan better for than others. You do have a point that New Ro has defended Monroe Woodbury’s offense relatively well over the years. I think that could have something to do with New Ro having seen MW almost every year over the past 5 years in the playoffs. They seem to have done better against MW’s offense the more they’ve seen of it. I’m not a MW expert, but even during Scalo’s years, I’m not sure I would rank MW’s offense as particularly pass-oriented – I feel like they ran significantly more than they passed with several of their very good backs.
Just a fact,
Thanks for posting the LI info. Hard to judge teams solely by looking at the W-L. As tough as I am on Section 1 teams for not getting to play outside teams, LI is even more insular. Most LI teams rarely play anyone outside of their county, definitely not anyone outside of LI. Since the LI schools don’t even play in the NYPHSAA playoffs its even harder to rank them. Obviously, just watching the best of the best play you can tell how good they are – I saw William Floyd a couple years ago with QB and WR who went to Hofstra – one of the better HS teams I’ve seen in awhile. That being said, very hard to judge where a 6-4 Syosset team or a 5-5 Brentwood team would rank in the CHSFL or Section 1 AA.
You like to discount how many big-time players come out of a particular league in terms of the leagues overall strength. I don’t agree with that at all. Assuming the coaching in a league is relatively good (Chsfl, LI and Section 1 AA) I’d imagine the amount of talent coming out of each league is indicative of strength. That being said, the last several years LI is right behind the CHSFL in terms of 1A players with the Buffalo area right behind LI.
Hoops, In B-Ball, I think we all would agree where kids go after HS should be a good indicator of strength of a HS team for the simple reason, a few kids can dominate the game. But as stated previously, there are just too many positions on the field and the need for additional quality players out weighs what two or three guys can do MOST of the time. There is always an exception. If you look at Roosevelt a couple years ago, I think before Mike Meade had taken over, they had Doug Hogue. Great talent, but they were pretty bad. I am not going to critique the Coaching, but it just makes sense one great player(or a couple) cannot do it alone. Call football the ultimate TEAM game.
The other aspect, the best HS players do not always go on to get scholarships. I have seen 6-6 kids get Scholarships who were not the best linemen on their team. It is no secret Colleges will recruit what they base they can develop you into.
Also, for the kids that might be good enough to play for D-2 or D-3, a lot of times you hear that they do not play for what ever reason might be; lack of want, college life ect.. So I just do not see how what a kid does after HS matters much. It matters, but not a lot.
Just a fact,
You’re being too simplistic in your assessment and not looking from both perspectives. I’m not talking about one kid (Hogue), I’m talking about a league (CHSFL or LI or Buffalo catholics or Buffalo publics) that produces 3,4,5,6 1A kids a year, every year for a long period of time – there’s a huge difference from that to producing a 1A player once in awhile.
You’re right that many of the better HS players go on to play D2 or D3, thats the same as it is in the CHSFL. You also mention that several very good HS players don’t play at all in college, thats also the same as it is in the CHSFL. To say one league is unique in kids that only play D2 or D3 or that don’t play college football at all is overly simplistic. Those factors affect leagues all over NYS, not just Section 1, etc.
If the amount of 1A players produced didn’t have a lot to do with coaching and overall league strength, then the PSAL would dominate the amount of 1A players produced. on the same level, Yonkers has 3x times the amount of people/students that New Ro does, so Yonkers should be producing far more D1 football players if coaching and competition level didn’t have much to do with it. Obviously, thats not how it works. Besides Hogue, it could be over a decade since Yonkers has had a 1A football player.
josh
i dnt think wher new ro struggles at is when they
can’t move the ball but when team force them to pass the ball to win. when…
there passing game and there d.b.’s covering the pass is a 50% factor in them winning, those are the games they never win!!!
hoops
the last couple of years scalo has had a throwing problem so m.w. didn’t have a true down field passing. to me they where actually running more of a wildcat offense
just fact
at the end of the year why the do not have chsfl champ,city champ, l.i.champ,state champ
all meet up at cuse dome for a three day weeknd tourney, games played friday and sunday to find out who is the best.
or those four champs the following season kick off the new season playing each other at a neutral site
Good idea! Too bad good ideas never happen when it comes to NY Football.
JUST
true when it comes to ny football all great idea get push to the side. i would love to know who is the best of the best in ny.
Sections 3, 4, and 9 allow their teams to schedule their own games outside their league.
In section 1, there are 2 non-league games. What is so hard about letting a school go out and decide who to play in those games? You could have inter-class games. you could have Public/Catholic games, The buffalo schools, Aquinas, and Binghamton/Syracuse area teams are always looking for games. You wouldn’t be able to get any NJ catholics anymore, but maybe some publics…
It’s bad that the teams are LOCKED into those games.