The rankings quandary
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- February
- 1
Woodlands is a Class B team that’s won three games this season. On Jan. 16, Woodlands beat Ardsley.
Ardsley had beaten Sleepy Hollow in the season opener. Sleepy Hollow beat Byram Hills two weeks ago. Byram Hills had already beaten Scarsdale. On Thursday, Scarsdale beat New Rochelle. And on less than 24 hours later, New Rochelle beat Mount Vernon.
So, obviously, on a given night, Woodlands could beat Mount Vernon. Right?
No, of course not. No disrespect to Woodlands, but that’s simply not how basketball works. It’s not as easy as looking at every teams schedule, referencing who beat who and simply basing all of your assumptions by following the chain of results.
That’s why I am agonizing this weekend over how I should rank the Top 10 teams in the area. Yes, as dumb and meaningless my rankings — and all rankings for that matter — are, I actually put a considerable amount of time and thought into it.
In tomorrow’s edition of The Journal News, this is how I ranked the Top 5 teams in Westchester based on the a wild 48 hours late in the week:
1. Peekskill
2. Iona Prep
3. New Rochelle
4. Mount Vernon
5. Stepinac
Mount Vernon at No. 4? I have trouble believing that. I actually had trouble physically typing those words on my laptop this morning when I submitted my weekly column.
If you asked me at this moment which team was going to win the Class AA sectional title — I’d say Mount Vernon without any hesitation. If asked which team would win a game between Mount Vernon and Peekskill or Mount Vernon and Iona Prep — I’d say Mount Vernon would beat them most of the time. In a best of seven with each, the Knights win 4-3.
Yet, one afternoon where New Rochelle played flawlessly and was hungrier (as the photo to the right perfectly illustrates) and Mount Vernon forgot to play defense and couldn’t knock down a shot outside 10 feet, the rankings are in shambles.
But here’s why I won’t back down from the rankings as they’ll appear in tomorrow’s Journal News:
1. Look at the overall body of work of the top four teams.
Peekskill and Iona Prep have each played more minutes of quality basketball than New Rochelle and Mount Vernon this season. It’s that simple. No other teams in the area have been as consistent, and played at as high a level than Peekskill and Iona.
New Rochelle looks unbeatable one minute and lost the next. Mount Vernon can be overwhelming, and it also has a habit of playing lazy and careless. Peekskill, meanwhile, shows up and plays hard every night, and is the only undefeated team left in the area. That means something. Iona Prep never plays down to its competition. For that, they deserve the accolades and should be Nos. 1 and 2. If they trip up down the line, perhaps Peekskill loses at Poughkeepsie or Iona gets knocked off by Ford, I’ll reconsider. For now, they belong there.
2. Everyone looks at strength of schedule, which is reasonable, and assumes Mount Vernon automatically plays the toughest. But examine the best five wins for each team:
Peekskill: 1. Iona Prep; 2. Poughkeepsie; 3. Newburgh; 4. Stepinac; 5. Central (Mass.)
Iona Prep: 1. Newburgh; 2. New Rochelle; 3. St. Dominic; 4. Stepinac; 5. Mount St. Michael
New Rochelle: 1. Mount Vernon; 2. Benedictine (Virg.); 3. Herndon (Virg.); 5. Leavenworth (Kan.); 5. White Plains
Mount Vernon: 1. Jefferson (Brooklyn); 2. St Raymond; 3. All Hallows; 4. Westview (Oreg); 5. White Plains
Which of those is the most impressive? Well, Mount Vernon’s certainly isn’t. Jefferson was pretty good and St. Ray’s was OK. The other three wouldn’t have beaten Peekskill, Iona or New Rochelle.
Meanwhile, Peekskill, Iona Prep and New Rochelle each have at least one powerhouse victory. Mount Vernon really doesn’t. I can see with my own two eyes — and I feel I have a pretty good grasp for talent based on my experience — that Mount Vernon is an elite team, perhaps even a state title-caliber. The Knights just haven’t shown it on a consistent basis, and it’s resume is lacking.
3. The fashion in which New Rochelle beat Mount Vernon should be considered. If New Rochelle had beaten Mount Vernon, say 51-45, I wouldn’t have quite the confidence in the Huguenots as I have now. It’s the fact that New Rochelle ratcheted up its play — one day after a mindless effort at Scarsdale — and scored 82 points on the Knights and beat them before a huge crowd that earns my respect.
4. Mount Vernon has another crack at New Rochelle, this Friday at home. It’s chance to move back up past New Rochelle. And, if the Knights do it convincingly, maybe even higher.
5. My rankings are completely meaningless.
And No. 5 is probably the only one that matters. Not to insult you, but your rankings or opinions don’t mean a thing either once the ball is tipped. I’m sure, though, you already knew that.
I’ll be posting my Weekly Picks on Monday morning, but I’ll let you know now that I’m picking Mount Vernon to beat New Rochelle on Friday. I’ll likely say by 7-10 points, too. At home, Mount Vernon is a different team, and they’ll surely come up with some urgency and pride in the rematch. If they don’t, then they’re not the team I thought they were.
The rankings are a great source for sparking debate and conversation. Hopefully, this keeps a great debate going.
This entry was posted
on Sunday, February 1st, 2009 at 12:37 am by Kevin Devaney Jr..
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Josh Thomson has done some of everything since joining The Journal News in March 2003. He began working for the Gannett weeklies during the winter of 2002 as a freelance writer. He joined the daily staff soon after and has since covered various high school and pro sports. Away from sportswriting, Josh lives in Westchester and spends his free time either with his wife, Sarah, or expertly managing his various championship-winning fantasy sports teams. He's visited 21 major-league baseball stadiums and insists that Fenway Park and Wrigley Field are the best by far. Josh graduated from Carmel High School in 1998, then went to Boston University, where, in 2002, he received a degree in communications with a minor in history.
Kevin,
Good rankings this week and nice article above, especially your comments on strentgh of schedule.
MV will top NR this week, but hopefully, they meet again at the County Center for all of the marbles.
Kevin-
It is clear that the area has 4 very good teams. Each team has valid arguements as to why they should be ranked at the top.
Some additional points would be that Mount Vernon did play the toughest schedule when you add in the losses to Dominguez and Monteverde. A MV fan would certainly fell they are penalized for playing the best competition that the country has to offer. Watching Jefferson live last night against Rice and St. Raymonds earlier this year I think you are underrating these wins by MV- You did not see them at their best at the SNY- Both teams are high caliber and great wins by MV.
Iona has also beaten handily White Plains which is not one of their top 5 wins where New Rochelle and Mount Vernon has them listed as one of their top 5 wins. So this would show that Iona had adeep pool of quality wins. If Iona beats All Hallows, Ford, Stepinac again and Mount again they will have mor quality wins.
Peekskill being undefeated is a great argument for them at this point in the season. Hopefully Iona and Peekskill will meet again at the Federation. Also you would hope that they would play next year as I believe both coaches are always willing to look for good non league games.
New Rochelle beating MV was a great win. When you beat the top program in the area in MV that has to go a long was in ranking them as a team. The loss to Scarsdale will hurt and losing by over 35 points to Iona does not help them.
Good Luck to all the teams.
Sing all you want about who is better but at the end my MONEYS on MOUNT VERNON dancing at the county, ever here that song
A nice post Iona Power.
Some hopes.
MV and NR play for the Section 1 AA title.
Iona Prep and Stepinac play for the CHSAA A title after topping Mount and Ford in the semifinals.
MV or NR top Rice for the AA federation championship. (This hope is borderline delusional, but we have to root for Westchester teams vs. NYC).
Peekskill and Iona Prep meet in the A federation finals and the game ends after 4 OTs. Thirty years from now, this kind of game will be remembered by everyone still alive.
MV decides to play Iona Prep and Stepinac in December 2009.
We know that MV would not have much to gain, but blog debates would be less.
I would still rank mvernon #1 – I still believe they are the best team in the county and they will prove that this week – so enjoy these new rankings for 1 week!
also kevin had mentioned 5 quality wins for the top 4…don’t leave stepinac out. they beat hayes 2x / beat mount 2x and the team they beat from mass.
(east long meadow) is currently ranked #1 in their region (they beat the team central twice) the same team that peekskill has as a quality win.
todays prediction bishop ford 88 iona 82 chazz is going to score 48 points! j/k
Kevin, your paragraph on strength of schedule is completley false. You never only take the wins and exclude the losses when analyzing a S.O.S For you to even attempt to say that MV’s schedule is not flat out better than Iona’s, New Ro’s or Peekskill is a joke and no one who truly follows HS basketball would think that. Ask Tom Konchowski, who has a better schedule..see what he says.
Playing a team like Malverde close is more impressive than beating a Newburgh(all of a sudden they are a powerhouse..PLEASE!) And for you to say St. Rays is just OK vs the other so called stud victories on that board is pathetic. You saw St. Rays once and now you think beating them is just ok and not as impressive as beating say.. Leavenworth Kansas..Yeah another stud team.
New Ro beat MV that is a great victory. The others you listed are LAUGHABLE. Those out of state teams stink and White Plains is not a big time victory.
Peekskill has one big time victory and that is Iona P. This was a great victory and a great game..but I still am not 100% this is more impressive than beating St. Rays and Jefferson. I am a Peeskill fan, so no need to dog them, but their schedule is weak. They are numb 1 beacuse they are undefeated and beat Iona, but this weak schedule may hurt them in the end. Honestly, Iona will be more battle tested coming down the stretch…
Iona Prep, got no problem with your ranking here. There CHSAA A division is better than Section 1 this year. They are playing great team ball and if all bodes well they will win out. I also trust Iona Powers postings and feel he has seen more bastball than you. His post is spot on and he is an Iona fan.
Kevin..you are right when you say your rankings mean nothing. This is def true. The order as of today is not an issue. Locally it makes sense for this week..but your schedule analaysis..sorry was a joke and inaccurate.
No Wonder New Ro beat Mount Vernon, from the picture above, it looks like Mike Bibby was playing for them (the kid on the right). lol
kevin-
great job with this week’s rankings. it is refreshing to see that there are still men, in this day and age, with the courage of their own convictions!
i am off to see iona v ford. if iona does not win, they should pay the consequence in the next power ranking. that would be the fair and honest thing to do. but in order to do that, you must first be an honest person seeking fairness!
keep up the good work and don’t let the blow-hards get you down.
Will anyone at Iona/Ford be able to give updates or anything?
At ip-ford with blackberry, warm ups started 5 mins ago
Take it easy,
You say Peek schedule is weak and the chsaa north is strong. Yet Peek beat both IONA and Step from that div plus have also beat Newburg and Pok, not to mention they won the tournery at central mass that step played in and beat them in the championship game. Also there was a team in the regular season that didn’t even show up. Also, they tried to schedule another game vs Lehman but no go. They beat up on Waldeigh (spelling off). They tried to schedule games against New Ro they said no not to mention some of the other AA teams.
Peek can only play the games that teams will agree to play them in. Also keep in mind this is one of the weaker PEEK teams over the past 4-5 years and they are undefeated.
Lincoln from the PSAL lost to JD a team that PEEK has split with last year a team that also beat Bishop L. Hopefully PEEK will play them in the States but we will see.
To say that PEEK only quality win is IONA is faulty at best.
Over the past 4-5 years PEEK record against the chsaa north and PSAl plus AA: and i am missing some
aLL HALLOWS 1-0
sT aNTHONY’S 1-1
wOODMERE Acd 1-1
Wings acd 1-1
Holy cross 1-0
Step 2-1
St Joes 1-0
New Ro 1-0
LIL 1-0
Card Hayes 2-0
JD 1-1
Wadleigh 1-0
South Shore 1-0
Iona 1-0
Blessed Sacrament (no show)
NFA 1-2
POK 4-1
Uniodale 1-0
White Plains 1-2
OSS 4-0
Amytiville 1-0
Total 28- 10
It is amazing to me that PEEK is #1 in Sec given the fact that this is one of the weaker PEEK team over the past 4-5 years and they are undefeated.
Chsaa north is a beast of a league this year mostly because of what IONA is doing usually they are not in the equation but now they are. Add that with a usually strong MOUNt and Step team it makes it that much tougher. By the way don’t those schools recruit players…
Iona… you are a complete tool! Let Iona Power or Mike do the posting for Iona. They are smart, fair and non-biased. You are nothing more than a loud mouth alum that brings nothing to the table.
Slow… I got nothing against Peek. I love the program and the style.. But that list is far from impressive when you are comparing MV to them. If you list MV’s schedules the past 4-5 years, it literally BLOWS them and any team in the area away. In fact, it may blow national teams away.
You also say Peeks team is down.. Is MV’s team not considered a down year? I would say so.. So you need to throw that out when we are talking about the NOW.
Got no problem with these rankings.. my issue is Kev down playing a REAL schedule. Any person that really follows HS basketball would know this. IT is comical to compare a local teams out of conference schedule to MV’s..
Peekskill and Iona are legit teams.. are they MV.. I say no, but that is subject to opinion for this year. New Ro will be out of the discussion come Friday. Teams that lose to Scarsdale aren’t winning Sect 1 championships..sorry
22-18 iona 6 left in 2nd
39-33 iona at half
thanks Chsaa keep us updated
Who’s playing well for Iona?
thanks for the updates
CHSAA.. thank you for the updates! Was planning on going to the game, but my little guy is sick.
Iona 69-43 after 3
Voelkel fouled out w 3 left in 3rd
Is that really the score?.. They outscored Ford 30 to 10 in the 3rd quarter? That’s quite impressive!
score?
Iona 83 ford 80 final
Sandro made free throws left and right
Chsaa, thanks for the updates! Who was the high scorer?? Also, do you know wagt Ford’s record was coming in?
Take it easy,
Again I must remind fans that MV is a dbl AA school with over 1500 students. PEEK is a school of 650 students. There is no comparison when talking abount MV and there ability to get players from their area with the Jr knights program etc,,,
They should play that schedule but for ppl to look at that like it is the holy grail is… well… silly. I would love to see how MV would do with only 600+ students and have the same success that PEEK has had over the years. The only other school in sec 1 with the type of hardware that MV has is PEEK with far less ppl.
Bottom line is MV shouldn’t have lost to them. They are heads and tails the best in the dbl AA a lost to NR isn’t exceptable (not counting Mcdermitt, Rice, etc). Could NR win the SNY… NO. Could any other school play that kind of sch probably not. But does that mean you can put down other programs because of their lack of school size and not being in the same demographic that they are in.
It is unfair to other local schools. But they deal with it. Least you forget, there used to be two schools in MV but they changed it to one and a legend was born.
Look it is all good MV is the cream of the crop around sec 1 but look at the bigger picture a large school in an area where there is only one high school. That is a huge adv that cannot be overlooked.
So when they lose locally it is a big deal beacuse they travel all over the place to play teams. Oh and as far as having a down year in MV don’t they have 9 seniors on that team. That doesn’t sound like a down year to me with all that experience. Remember coach C was touting his sr’s as the key to there success.
A few years back North Rockland had a team of 5 seniors that went 23-1 in there section who was there only lost? you should know…
Ford v. Iona Prep was a great game and a quality win for the Gaels. Iona led by 26 until Brian Voelkel fouled out with 9-10 minutes to play, and then it became a nailbiter. Sandro Carissmo scored 30 and was the best player on the floor today. In addition, Jordon Bonner, Jeff Mack, and Andre Pope all played well; Voelkel finished with 13 pts. and 15 rebounds.
P.S. I would see to see Chaz Williams and Brickhouse go head-to-head because they both play at warp speed.
Does anyone know the other losses that Bishop Ford has had?
Greg K
Ford lost to Jamesville Dewitt and Long Island Lutheran who had Tobias Harris back in the lineup.
Peekskill has a great style of play. For instance, they crash the boards for offensive rebounds, time and time again, and this kind of relentless board work paid off bigtime in the win over Iona Prep.
Many high school coaches don’t emphasize offensive rebounding, but Coach Lou does. You don’t win 500 games by taking one shot (missing 50-60% of the time) and then turn tail to play defense. Teams need more put-back baskets just like Peekskill.
greg k,
as iona power stated, ford’s only losses were in a binghamton tournament against jamesville-dewitt and recently against l.i. lutheran
http://www.leaguelineup.com/schedules.asp?sid=713750723&url=chsaasports&divisionid=277672&teamid=2053328
Slow Down…
Ill say it again, I have no problem with the actual rankings and what peekskill has accomplished. Same with Iona..
You defended my issue.. NO ONE plays a tougher schedule than MV!!!! So for Kevin to attempt to down play and then say the “wins” of the other teams are better is a joke. Playing a schedule like MV’s garners national attention, but it needs to be ridiculed in Westchester.. That’s the issue..
kEVIN,
REALLY GOOD GAME IN MAHOPAC/LAKELAND ON SAT NIGHT ALTHOUGHT MAHOPAC WON IT COULD HAVE GONE EITHER WAY. LAKELAND WILL BE A RAEL CONTENDER IN THE TOURNAMENT, GOOD SIZE AND RUN THE COORT VERY WELL,SOLID GAURD PLAY AND HIT THIER FOUL SHOTS.I THINK MAHOPAC JUST WORE THEM OUT IN THE THIRD AND FORTH AFTER GETTING KILLED ON THE BOARDS THE FIRST 2 QUARTERS,THEY WERE DOWN 11 AT ONE POINT AND REALLY DID A NICE JOB DEFENCEVLY GETTING BACK IN THE GAME AND MAINTAINING A LEAD.
Slow down everybody,
Listing all those head to head matchups was interesting. I think the argument about Peekskill’s schedule is something it can’t control – league games. The Section 1 A league doesn’t really have any teams that should be able to beat Peekskill. When Peekskill plays poorly and another team plays great (like Lakeland two years ago) it can be close, but it really shouldn’t be. Here’s the argument, those 38 games you listed were over the past 5 years. Several of them like St Anthonys, Lutheran, Woodmere Academy, St Joseph’s Buffalo, Amityville and Hayes were in the Federations. Ossining had one great team Kenny Horton’s senior year, but I wouldn’t generally consider them a power. That means, each season Peekskill including playoffs, state playoffs, all the way to Federations each year plays somewhere around 6-7 very tough games a year. Its not Peekskill’s fault that they out class all the Section 1 A teams, but only playing that many tough games a year is a relatively low number going all the way to the Federations as Peekskill often does. I commend Peekskill for playing in the Slam Dunk every year. I think they definitely should. I think they should also try to get a game every year with White Plains, New Rochelle, Iona and Stepinac. I really don’t understand why New Rochelle would turn down a game with Peekskill (a top regional team) to leave the New York area to play regional opponents in Richmond and Glendale, MO. That doesn’t make any sense to me. If you leave NY to play top national competition like Mt Vernon does or leave NY to play top regional competition in another area because you can’t find any good games locally – I would understand it.
At the end of the day, playing a weak league schedule hasn’t seemed to hurt Peekskill in the playoffs or Federations so I guess the old adage of if its not broke don’t fix it applies.
First off after reading about Iona Prep and their team of The Century on theses blogs a few things are apparent.
1) Talking about winning anything at this point is getting a little ahead of things at the very least. If they are better than Bishop Ford they did not make the case yesterday by any means. If you think they did well i will tell you what..dont think for a minute that The people that they really had to prove it to are convinced, because they are not. Those are ofcourse the BF players.
2) Even if they win a CHSAA A title…which i will go on record to say they will not…keep in mind that Jamesville Dewitt beat Bishop Ford handily and recently beat 3 time Federation Champ Lincoln of Brooklyn.
3) I have seen Iona Prep four times this year and when the going gets tough ….well lets just hope for your sake that Sandro is not in foul trouble, because some of the other players have shown to come up lame, in foul trouble, or suffer a loss of composer.
Jamesville Dewitt is the elephant in the room and could end all hopes of a Peekskil-Iona Prep re-match.
The team (of the last century) was the 1971 MV squad led by Gud Williams.
NYC Hoops,
That truly was a team of the century! Getting basketball fans in Westchester to agree to anything is tough, but most I know agree the 1970-71 MV team was the best ever in Westchester. If I recall correctly, there was Gus Williams, Rudy Hackett, Mike Young, Earl Tatum and two other big guys whose names are eluding me. All four of the other guys were great college players and Williams, Hackett and Tatum had NBA careers. I think Young was drafted too.
Iona Prep’s team this year is very good and they have 4 DI prospects, clearly a lot of Iona fans are ecstatic about them, but to put in perspective how good that MV team was – imagine all of Iona’s players on that MV team, coming off the bench!
As a partial Stepinac fan, I can say I’m glad Stepinac didn’t play MV that year. Stepinac actually beat MV in 1958 and 1970 and I think in 1969 as well, fortunately the series took a break in 1971.
Hey… MSG’s High School weekly show came on last night and did their rankings…
AND NEW ROCHELLE DIDN’T MAKE THE CUT (they are listed as on the bubble)...
5 Peekskille
6 Mt Vernon
7 Iona Prep
and this was after the new ro win over mt vernon.
Thanks for taking the time out to share this with the world. I really appreciate this. Keep doing what you’re doing.