And finally… Class C

January

28

This entry was posted on Wednesday, January 28th, 2009 at 6:04 pm by Kevin Devaney Jr..
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41 Responses to “And finally… Class C”

1. tiger January 28th, 2009 at 6:40 pm

   Kevin,
   how many more wins does North Salem need to Qualify?

2. Mike January 28th, 2009 at 7:13 pm

   This class will be a tough one to predict.

3. Class C Fan January 28th, 2009 at 7:31 pm

   Mike,

   No it won’t… Valhalla wins it

4. abc123 January 28th, 2009 at 8:27 pm

   putnam valley did not beat haldane.

5. Class C Fan January 28th, 2009 at 8:34 pm

   If Valhalla and Blind Brook both end up 17-3, which would mean two Valhalla wins over Bl.Brook, Bl. Brook would still keep the #1 seed based on their wins vs, AA-Roosevelt A-Rye & Yonkers

6. mrvolo January 28th, 2009 at 8:38 pm

   to all my friends,

   i am puting this on this blog because i know everybody reads all of them.we are all caught up in AA,A,ETC WINS and what coach has howmany wins.maybe we should count how many players go to college on a free ride.if a high school coach sends 2 or 3 seniors every year to a school for free to me he is a hall of fame coach.i go back to howie smith at mount saint michael and on the first day of practice he would tell his seniors he would do what ever he could to get them to football in college if that was there goal.how many players last year went on to basketball at college?

7. Hoops fan January 28th, 2009 at 9:12 pm

   mrvolo,
   There are probably only 6 programs in Westchester that can make the kind of genuine offer that Howie Smith made. Mt Vernon sends almost all of their graduating seniors on to college basketball. Stepinac, Peekskill, Iona, White Plains and New Rochelle also send a decent amount of players on to college basketball. Mount does too of course. I agree with you about the importance of how many kids end up getting college scholarships, because after all that is one of the things that sports can do for kids beyond any personal accolade that has lasting positive effects after all the cheers have faded. Particularly so in cases of kids who aren’t born with silver spoons in their mouths.

8. HRs January 28th, 2009 at 9:30 pm

   One team that recently has been sending a lot of kids to college is POK. Earlier in the season, Statesmen listed quite a few. It was impressive.

9. Not True January 28th, 2009 at 10:37 pm

   I don’t think it’s true that Mount sends a lot of kids to play basketball at college. Brian Riley a three year starter is at Albany but not for basketball. I don’t think any went last year. How many have there been since Alejo Rodriquez went to Iona?

10. Old Mountie January 28th, 2009 at 11:34 pm

    mr volo,
    Do not even bring up Howie Smith. I do not know when you played at Mount, but when I was there in the late seventies, early eighties, we had the misfortune of having Howie Smith as the baseball coach. The man was already senile and would call us by names of players from years gone by. He probably called me mr volo at some point. He was not coherent enough at that time to help anyone play college ball. The shame goes to Mount for not forcing his retirement in the sixties when he started losing his mental faculties. A lot of excellent baseball players got overlooked in those years

11. mrvolo January 29th, 2009 at 7:31 am

    old mountie,
    i graduated in 1952.what you are saying is true.he did become a little senile.i think he stopped coaching football at the end and still coached baseball.he started at mount in early 40’s and was the best back then.

12. mrvolo January 29th, 2009 at 7:56 am

    not true
    i must say you are right.lets hope the two seniors get to go.i know williams has 2 solid offers from Div 3 but is hoping for Div2.i feel he should play Div 2.

13. Hoops fan January 29th, 2009 at 10:10 am

    Old Mountie and MrVolo,
    As I was told, Howie Smith actually started at Mount in the early 30’s, then left for Holy Cross College for a couple years, then came back. Too bad he stayed too long. I know he was one of the best football coaches New York has seen in his prime.

    Not true,
    I didn’t know where Brian Riley ended up. Did he go to Albany intending to play and then decided not to? He definitely could’ve played DII basketball. Mount has had several players recently at the DII level, in addition to Alejo Rodriguez. Ryan Lobban is at Dowling, Jarrett Malone is playing somewhere I think. I can’t remember the names of the plethora of solid, strong, quick guards Mount seems to have every year. I know I’ve heard that a few of them were playing at the DII and DIII level. Kaseem Carr left Mount for his senior year at Thurgood Marshall Academy only to end up at a JUCO. He would’ve been better off staying at Mount! Going back a few more years, Dom Cuzzi played at Mercy (DII). Another kid, Keys, played at BU or Northeastern. The mid-90’s was height of Mount’s prowess – Jarrett Lockhard played at Pitt, Brendan Dunlap played at Virginia Tech, Norman Fields walked on at Maryland and played some, their big guy played somewhere too. Before that Mount had Dickerson who played at LIU, Noonan played at Marist and Gordon Winchester who played at Seton Hall. Several others that I’m sure I’m forgetting as well. This year, it looks like Williams could definitely play college basketball. The 6’9” kid I’m sure will get a chance to play somewhere, he has another year left. The other football player I hear is a DIA-AA football prospect. The sophomore Aguilar is a likely DI player with the numbers he is putting up already, the only question would be what level. The other senior guard could probably play at a small school. Mount has 3 major college players in the last 20 years, not many lccal schools besides Mt Vernon and Stepinac can say that.

14. Class C Fan January 29th, 2009 at 10:47 am

    Kevin,

    Hamilton is 10-4 your missing a win against Haldane. still leaves them at the #3 seed.

15. Richard January 29th, 2009 at 11:43 am

    Mount is an underachieving school as far as basketball is concerned. I wouldn’t even call it a program. With the pool of talent as a large all boys school, they should be better. I don’t think it is because Fraher can’t coach but rather his lack of commitment and desire to put together a real program. Successful programs involve academic, training and summer activities to develop their team and it’s players. Mount does none of that. Their big guy, who Mckenna, who knows nothing, and Fraher seem to love is 6’9” and has not gotten any better in three years under their watch. In all the years Fraher has coached, he wins when he had the biggest and best players; he wont outcoach too many good coaches. As far as helping the kids in getting to college, do not coun on it. He does absolutely nothing for them. I would tell any parent who has a son with basketball potential to stay clear of Mount.

16. Not True January 29th, 2009 at 12:08 pm

    Hoops Fan,

    Thanks for that information but 3 in 20 years is pathetic considering the number of boys and successes Mount basketball has had. Outside the gym are pictures of those playing in college and it’s not that many. I don’t believe Malone is playing anywhere and Riley is definitely at Albany, but not for basketball. That same class had Gus (forget the last name) who was a 6.2 or 6.3 DII level skilled guard who went nowhere. He must have got in someone’s doghouse, as he was not playing even though he had the skills and Mount needed a big guard at times to go with Kadeem and Williams.

    Why is it that you think big Brian at 6.9 going to play somewhere when the two big men from last year who were 6.7 and 6.8 are not. Jason Walsh 6.8 from about 5 years ago is at Manhattenville a D3 school.

17. Class C Fan with a calculator January 29th, 2009 at 12:11 pm

    After careful pourong over the numbers Class C will come down to this. Top 3 seeds are set, Bl. Brook, Valhalla, and Alex.Ham. Sol Schecter and Child. Village could flip flop the 4 and 5,North Salem will make the bracket and right now be the 6 seed. Will most likely have to beat Rye Neck to get in, Tuckahoe will most likely have to beat Bronxville to get in. My opinion is the neither team gets in. Leaving the bracket at 6 teams. Giving Blind Brook and Valhalla byes to the semi’s and a potential match-up of North Salem and Alex. hamilton in the first round. Just a educated guess.

18. Class C Fan with a calculator January 29th, 2009 at 12:12 pm

    I’m sorry in my haste the team i forgot to mention was Keio having to beat Rye Neck to get in.

19. Rileygirl January 29th, 2009 at 2:06 pm

    Richard,I have to disagree with your opinion of Coach Fraher. He might not be the best x,o coach out there and I cant say for sure about what he does for kids as far as college but I do know that he doesnt openly recruit kids at neighboring schools, or kids at rival schools. That integrity has to mean something.Because there is plenty of that going on in his league

20. realistic parent January 29th, 2009 at 3:04 pm

    All this talk about measuring high school coaches by how many players he gets Division 1 scholarships for is ridiculous. Lets not forget—this is high school—teenagers. 95 % of theses kids, on average, will never play in college. Many of those who do start playing in college will quit after one or two years because they realize sports is not everything in life and that less than 1% of even the best athletes will be able to make a living in professional sports. So you want to judge a high school coach by how well he does with the 5% of his best athletes who will play in college? Kids who are good enough to get Division 1 scholarships in any sport are phenomenal athletes and most likely play that sport year round in AAU and other high power leagues. Even if their high school coach is a complete idiot, the Division 1 schools will find those superior athletes through the other programs, thru tournaments, thru showcases, whatever. Let’s judge high school coaches by how they treat the 95% of the other kids—how many of those kids go on to be good students, good adults, good contributors to the community, with real values outside of sports and regardless of wins and losses.

21. Hoops fan January 29th, 2009 at 5:57 pm

    Richard and Not True,
    I think you misunderstood what I wrote. Mount has produced 3 MAJOR college scholarship basketball players in 20 years. Mt Vernon as probably produced 8-10 in the same span. White Plains (Kilpatrick) and New Rochelle (McDermott) produced one each that I can think of. Stepinac I can think of 3 (Llewellyn Cole, Melquan Bolding and Tony Taylor). Iona hasn’t had one to my knowledge. Peekskill I think has had two (Elton and Mookie). I don’t know if there were any other players in this area to fall into that category besides Otis Hill, Danya Abrams, Tyrone Foster and Donnie McGrath. 3 players in 20 years is pretty damn good.

    Not True,
    I think your language is awfully harsh towards the Mount coach unless you’re his mother or brother or something. I don’t know Fraher personally, so I can’t say for sure, but he always struck me as a good guy, a solid coach and someone who relates well to his players. If your discussion is putting kids in college programs he’s had a lot of players go on to play college basketball – more than almost anybody around.

    Richard,
    I think calling Mount’s program pathetic is crazy. Mount has had a team that competes for the Class A title for as long as there’s been a Class A (formerly B) division. He’s won the title several players. He’s sent players to major colleges, several other DI schools, many DII and DIII schools and even had a few that played professionally overseas. I don’t ever think I’ve seen a Mount program that underachieves on the basketball court. If your point is that he isn’t competing with St Rays and Rice for players, thats fine, but that isn’t what you actually said. Mount has really been a football school forever, so I’m not sure what your expectations are for their basketball program.

22. Class C Fan January 29th, 2009 at 9:31 pm

    Hoops Fan

    As far as Peekskill goes you forgot Hilton Armstrong at UConn

23. Not True January 29th, 2009 at 9:44 pm

    Hoops Fans,

    You got your message reversed and also what I referred to as patheitic. First off, I didn’t say a thing about Coach Fraher. My initial comments were in regards to yours about Mount sending players on to college basketball like other teams you mentioned. My point was that since Alejo there have been none and you corrected me with Lobban. The number is 2 not 1. I still say with all the success of the program more kids from Mount should be going to college on basketball D2 if not D1 scholarshps and that Mount’s basketball scholarship record, not Mount’s program, is pathetic.

    Realistic Parent,
    Where did we get to professional sports? With the high cost of college edging your bets with any kind of athletic help is just another strategy. It not all about D1, D2 is good too and if you qualify D3 grants. No one should ever lose sight and put all their hopes on an athletic scholarships eiher. The most important thing is to be a realistic parent and do your best to get your child the best education possible.

    RileyGirl,
    Why is not recruiting players a virtue? I believe Conroy Baltimore of Stepinac and Sherrod Wright of Mount Vernon both live very close to Mount. I wouldn’t have seen anything wrong with Mount trying to recruit or persuade either to come to Mount when they were 8th graders. Going a step further if Mount could put a few dollars back in the parents pocket via tuition reduction what would have been wrong with that?

24. Hoops fan January 30th, 2009 at 8:53 am

    Realistic parent,
    You’re right that for many student/athletes in this area the expectation of playing college basketball or DI basketball is not realistic. However, at a school like Mt Vernon, Stepinac, Peekskill, White Plains, Iona, New Rochelle and Poughkeepsie it can be. If you play for any of the above mentioned teams and you want to pursue playing basketball in college, there is probably at least a 50% change that you could play somewhere at some level. At Mt Vernon, I think well over 90% of the kids go on to play basketball in college. I do agree that some of us on this blog, including myself at times, can get a little caught up discussing you will play DI basketball. I think the real issue is how many kids can get a scholarship of some kind to help further their education (doesn’t matter what level of basketball).

    If a kid is from Scarsdale, Greeley, Rye, Edgemont, Eastchester, etc. they probably don’t have to worry much about paying for college. Many of those kids can choose to go to any school they want in the country without worrying about paying a tuition bill, since their parents may often be in a position to do so. There are many places in Westchester and the surrounding areas where this is not the case. Everyone these days can get in to a college, but for many kids the real question is how they’ll pay for it. When you hear about a kid being one of the first people in his family to get a college education – and its payed for because of athletic skills – thats a special thing to me. Using your athletic talents to help continue your education is probably the most important thing, long term, that an athlete can do.

    Also, you mention that DI coaches will just find superior athletes. That can be true in some cases. Some kids arrive at high school in september of their freshman year with greatness already following them (i.e. Sherrod WRight, Mitchell and Coburn at MV), but that is an incredibly rarity. Almost all DI players develop tremendously in their high school years. How they develop, iimprovement and the habits they form determine how far they go as a player. We all came name dozens of kids who were grammar school phenoms but once they got to high school stopped getting better. A good coach can help a kid develop and is particularly important attracting college coaches on the DII or DIII levels. Those schools don’t have these huge budgets, so if a respected coach calls them about a player, they’ll listen. If your child wants to play any sport in college, I highly, highly suggest making sure the high school they attend has a coach that has experience making that happen for other kids. Its true, if your kid is a phenom (which most aren’t) college coaches will likely find them. If your kid is a very good player with plenty of room for growth, make sure his coaches are good and help him/her develop.

    Class C Fan,
    Clearly, I’m an idiot for forgetting about an NBA player in Hilton Armstrong. Thanks for pointing it out,

25. MRVOLO January 30th, 2009 at 3:21 pm

    Not True

    in regard to recruiting players,it is against CHSAA rules to give athletic scholarships.the way it works at mount,a student must first be admitted to school by a test grades etc.once this happens financial aid is given on need.no student has a free ride.many people sponsor student’s at the mount but the above must happen.if you go back the following graduated from mount grade school.MACK,WOODSEN,BALTIMORE & OMARI LAWRENCE.these were names told to me this A.M.

    the integrity Coach F.has is he plays by the rules.i was at their practice today and was impressed at the speed at which it is held.i hope i saw some things that might help on tuesday.

26. realistic parent January 30th, 2009 at 5:12 pm

    Hoops Fan,

    You and I are in agreement on most of these points. My main point was about the D1 Scholarship Athlete— at that level of athletic ability and skill, it really does not matter who his high school coach is—great coach or terrible coach or anywhere in the middle. That D1 scholarship athlete was born with outstanding physical traits and his or her skills were most likely sharpened by many other youth and teenage coaches outside of the high high school varsity coach.

    Yes the high school coach can help with the other kids looking to play D2 or D3. But still—the numbers are the numbers. While 80% of Mount vernon basketball players may go on and play in college, the fact is when you look at all schools and all sports, boys and girls, it is only about 5% total varsity athletes play in college. My other main point then was we should be judging high school coaches in all of these sports more on how they treat the 95% of the kids rather than how the 5% elite athletes do.

27. Not True January 30th, 2009 at 7:47 pm

    MRVOLO,
    CHSAA schools like St Rays, Rice, CtK etc are recruiting. Are you saying all those kids are paying their own way at those schools or have sponsorship?

28. Mike January 30th, 2009 at 9:34 pm

    On one hand, all student-athletes should do their homework because very few will ever earn a living playing a professional sport. On the other hand, parents should save much money for college tuition and room and board ($60,000 for 4 yrs. at a SUNY school and $200,000 for a good private college) because very few basketball players in Section 1 will ever win D-I or D-II grant-in-aids.

    Top players at Rice, CTK, Saint Ray’s etc. do not pay tuition. Those schools “buy” talent because alumni- sponsored grants pay the frieght.

    Kevin should do a story on it.

    No h.s. coach can “put a kid into” a D-I program based on hard work or network connections. If kids can play, college coaches will find them quickly.

29. Hoops fan January 30th, 2009 at 10:07 pm

    realistic,
    I completely disagree with you about DI players being born – that is absurd and insulting. If that is the case, why are pairs of brothers often completely different kinds of players? Having height, speed, quickness or strength are all great factors in helping you be a good ballplayer in any sport, but just because you have those 4 qualities doesn’t make you a great player. So much more goes into it. I know kids who’ve played major college basketball who have siblings and fathers with little to no athletic skill. Coaching is certainly a huge factor in developing a player. AAU basketball helps get exposure, but a lot of AAU basketball doesnt teach anything about how to play. You need to show up to AAU basketball knowing how to play, AAU is not the time to develop, its just the time to show all your hard work.

    MrVolo,
    Mount is a classy place and Fraher is a good coach. Don’t let anyone on these blogs tell you otherwise. The fact of the matter is there is always sniping among these schools (Mount, Iona, Stepinac, Hayes, etc) about players. One kid may choose Iona eventhough he lives across the street from Stepinac. Some New Ro kids choose Stepinac over Iona. Kids from the Bronx choose Stepinac or Iona over Hayes or Mount all the time. it has a lot to do with individual kids and what they see at each school and what they think of the style of play/coach. (example: Fordham gets not much in terms of players because they watch that Princeton offense as 8th graders and run away in droves). If I was an 8th grade hotshot QB – I’d be on my way to Iona having watched Woodson play in a great offense. If I’m a 8th grade hotshot running back, I’d probably go to Stepinac to follow after Slowley and Easterling and their freshman this year. Same thing goes with basketball. It used to be that kids would go to the school in their neighborhood or to the school that their brother/cousin went to. These days, kids pick schools for completely esoteric and personal reasons – that goes for ballplayers and regular kids alike.

    Mike,
    “Buy” is way, way too strong of a word. A kid going to a catholic school for free is a good thing. Not a negative in anyway that I can comprehend. Many, many kids at all of these schools get financial aid or scholarships – whether they play basketball or not. The whole point of education is to further one’s life. As long as these schools are helping do that, I have no problem. The top PSAL teams do everything the top CHSAA teams do to attract players (and more due to lighter rules).

30. Hoops fan January 30th, 2009 at 10:14 pm

    Mike,
    No one is saying a HS coach can “put a kid” into a DI scholarship. HS Coaches can impact the process in any number of ways. HS coaches be a big help getting kids seen by the right college coaches through their connections and experience. HS coaches can also be impactful by having a style of play that is conducive to allowing kids to show their skills. HS coaches can also be incredibly valuable in helping kids develop their skills. I’ve heard a lot about a certain coach you like to put down on these blogs being in the gym doing individual workouts with his playoffs at all hours of the day in the off season. MV’s coaches most certainly do a fantastic job developing their players skills that would’ve happen at many other places.

    If anyone wants to tell me that coaching doesn’t help with producing DI players, lets look at a simple, effective example. The City of Yonkers. Yonkers has 5 public high schools, right? 4 of 5 are AA schools. There are probably close to 10000 kids in the Yonkers high schools. There are 2500 at MV. 2700 at New Ro. 2000+ at WP. If coaching doesn’t affect DI scholarships, why does MV, WP and NR have so many more DI players despite having so many fewer kids? Any answers to that one? I’d also very strongly believe that with Coach Rizzo now at Gorton there will be a stream of DI players coming out of Gorton in years to come. Same kids + Different coach = big results.

31. Mike January 31st, 2009 at 7:10 am

    Hoops fan,

    I am sorry this post will be a long, but you need to use your critical thinking skills a little more in these debates.

    Alumni sponsors who pay for students’ tuition at Catholic schools can be a good thing. I only wish that these same alumni gave grants to students who excel in the classroom, science labs, band, debate, and the arts. Thus, “buy” is not too strong a word since students would not get the grant money if they couldn’t play BB well.

    Rice H.S. needs an Intel science program with 7 scholarship students in it because America needs more doctors and engineers.

    In terms of Yonkers and its lack of D-I players when compared to MV, WP, and NR, you did what most people do when complexity exists, and historical, economic, legal, political, psychological, and sociological perspectives are ignored. You sought the least common denominator to explain the difference (i.e., coaches helping kids get to D-I). As a result, your analysis is oversimplified because you choose only one variable – the high school coach.

    Let’s exmaine 3 powerful dynamics regarding Yonkers.

    First, since the City of Yonkers defaulted financially in 1975 and 1976 and a NYS emergency control board took over the city’s finances for many years, the Yonkers schools have struggled in numerous ways.

    Bernard Toone and Andre Battle were D-I players from Yonkers circa 1975. Toone later played for Al McGuire at Marquette which won the NCAA D-I national championship in 1977 (?) and Battle played at Cleveland State. Other D-I players such as Charlie Criss came before them.

    Second, the 20-year desegregation battles hurt the quality of Yonkers’academic and athletic programs on a macro level, reduced the amount of D-I talent in all 5 high schools, and adversely affected the won-loss records of their basketball teams on a micro level.

    Third, poverty exists in all Westchester cities, but Yonkers has 196,000 people and more of them live below the federal government’s poverty line than in MV, WP, or NR combined. If a family needs money to subsist, it is tough for them to pay $600 a year to play AAU for the Westchester Hawks and get additonal exposure for the children with potential.

    The PSAL, London Reyes, Sr., and other dedicared Yonkers youth leaders are trying to overcome the financial obstacles, but it is a difficult hill to climb.

    When the aforementioned variables are coupled together and analized in totality, middle and upper class white, black and Latino flight occured in Yonkers from 1975 to the present and many families (a few with D-I BB talent) moved elsewhere. Also top teachers and coaches did not apply to work in the five Yonkers public high schools or did not remain there for long because the salary scales were so low, and they can’t keep their gyms open like Stepinac, Iona, NR and MV because of budget constraints.

    If Bob Cimmino, Tim Phelp, Bill Murphy, or Vic Quirolo coached at Roosevelt, they and a few players cannot use the gym on Saturdays or Sundays during the off-season for individual drills.

    Whats does it all mean?

    The five Yonkers high schools would have a fair amount of D-I talent in football, basketball, hockey, and baseball if: a. so many families did not leave the city in the past 35 years; and b. if the families who still live in Yonkers did not send their sons and daughters to Catholic schools in the Bronx and Westchester (i.e, the Crestwood, Christ the King, and Saint Eugene’s folks who send their sons to Fordham Prep, Iona Prep, or Stepinac or the others who move to NR, WP, or Pearl River for better schools).

32. Joe January 31st, 2009 at 10:43 am

    Yonkers BB is getting better and better each year.

33. NYC Hoops January 31st, 2009 at 10:44 am

    Good post on Yonkers BB and the problems in that City.

34. Hoops fan January 31st, 2009 at 1:58 pm

    Mike,
    I read intently every word of your statement. Were you trying to prove my point for me – if so you did a good job. I’m anxiously awaiting your thoughts on my response.

    Yes, Yonkers in the 60’s and 70’s produced a ton of great basketball players – NBA and DI included. Why? There were great public school teams at the high schools in Yonkers. Gorton, Lincoln and Roosevelt each were the #1 team in Westchester at various times in the 60’s and 70’s. Yonkers high might’ve been as well in the 70’s. Why? Because there were fantastic coaches at those programs. John Volpe, Les Beck, among others. Those coaches leave and look what happens to the programs – they drop considerably and no longer turn out great players. Another more recent example – Roosevelt football. Under Tony DeMatteo (another Stepinac grad1) Roosevelt was one of the top couple teams (along with White Plains and New Ro) almost every year in Westchester. DeMatteo leaves and what happens to Roosevelts football program? Huge drop in succes and poor records almost every year. Do you think this is a coincidence? It’s not.

    Your point about the City of Yonkers having fiscal issues in the 70’s is historically correct, but does that effect putting out great basketball players? I don’t think so. New York City had fiscal problems as bad or worse than Yonkers in the mid-70’s – did NYC stop producing great players in the mid-70’s? Absolutely not. The late 70’s and early 80’s were glory days in NYC basketball. Also, at the time Yonkers had these fiscal issues Yonkers basketball was on a high note and continued into the 80’s. Does having fiscal issues help a HS basketball program – of course not. But look into some of the great coaches at schools that are bone poor (i.e. St Anthonys, NJ has been on the verge of closing for 20 years yet Hurley finds a way to keep that program churning without economic certainties; Vinnie O’Conner’s St Francis Prep football team hasn’t had a home field to practice or play on and barely had equipment for many years yet had 10+ NFL players come out of his program).

    You seem to be making the argument that high poverty levels and lower socio-economic standing hurts producing basketball players? Are you serious? You could be the first person in the world to make that argument. Most every other basketball fan or social-scientist will argue that the higher the levels of poverty and the lower the socio-economic status the MORE basketball players that are produced. Generally speaking basketball is popular in poorer neighborhoods even more so than in wealthy neighborhoods because it is cheap to play and easy to access. Rich kids can play hockey, lacrosse, tennis, go skiing, drive around in their cars, etc. etc. Any kid in any neighborhood can get hold of a basketball and take to the court for hours at a time.

    Your point about school busing and the previous defacto segregation of Yonkers schools is a good one on a socio-economic level. But that occurred in the late 70’s, right. The Yonkers teams still have good basketball teams well into the 80’s. Tony DeMatteo had great Roosevelt football teams until he left around 2000, so I think despite Yonkers making their schools more multi-cultural you can still create great programs there with great coaches.

    Lastly, you made a point about kids not going to public schools in Yonkers instead going to catholic grammar schools and then to Iona, Stepinac or Fordham. This is ttue, but kids have been going to catholic grammar and high schools forever, this is not a new phenomenon. plenty of catholic kids went to Stepinac and Iona in the 70’s when Yonkers had great HS programs and were putting out tons of players. Also, when you think of it, I can’t remember the last time a Yonkers kid from Stepinac, Iona or Fordham was a DI player. Iona hasn’t had any DI players since Jackette and Delfico (both were from Hawthorne or Valhalla) I think. of the current Iona talent, I don’t know that any are from Yonkers. Stepinac has plenty of Yonkers kids, but I don’t know any that have been blue chip basketball players in a long, long time.

    Mark my words that with Coach Rizzo will make Gorton a power again very shortly. This year they even shocked the westchester basketball world beating Lutheran, White Plains and playing Peekskill tough. Coaches help make great players. period. There is no question in my mind about this and I don’t think many serious basketball fans would disagree with me.

35. Mike February 1st, 2009 at 8:05 am

    Hi hoops fan,

    You make some very good points above and I enjoy the give-and-take. However, you sound like Bill Clinton, the best political spin-doctor in history. Next, you are likely to post a rant that accuses those who do not agree with you of being are part of a vast right or left wing conspiracy.

    LOL.

    Allow me to comment on a few things in sime kind of random fashion.

    I saw Gorton for the 5th time yesterday against Sacred Heart and Coach Rizzo does excellent work which is not surprising. I could post 5-6 paragraphs describing all of the good things that Gorton does on the floor, but time and space will not allow for it.

    Rizzo will overcome some of the obstacles I detailed above and will build a consistent winner at Gorton. Thus, I agree with you, in part, but not in whole.

    Also note that Lutheran was missing two top guns as they stumbled through the 2008 Slam Dunk.

    John Volpe, Les Beck, and Joe Flowers were three great coaches. When they taught and coached in Yonkers, the salaries, benefits and working conditions were much better than today. If they were young coaches now, chances are good to excellent that they would work in other public school districts where the salaries are much higher and where the can use the gyms anytime they wish like Bob Cimmino at MV, Tim Phelp at Stepinac, and Vic Quirolo at Iona.

    Again, I agree with you in part because good coaches make a “marginal difference,” but they need good players to win, and more factors are in play which you continue to ignore.

    As an aside, Mike McDonnell is also doing a nice job in his first year at SH. His kids play hard and are learning much about BB. In particular, the 1-3-1 zone he employed against Gorton was effective.

    Your NYC comparison makes sense on the surface, but remember that NYC has a population of 9 million residents compared to Westchester County with just under 1 million and the City of Yonkers with 196,000 – 54,000 less than in 1990 according to the U.S. Census Bureau.

    Clearly, a critical mass of 9 million will produce more D-I talent, even though NYC and its schools have faced major financial headaches since the late 1960s under Mayor John Lindsey and later, Abe Beame.

    You can’t invoke the sustained excellence platform of Saint Anthony’s in this particular debate because Hurley awards full scholaships to top players – something the Yonkers public schools can’t do.

    Vin O’Connor found his football players in a NYC borough with many people and a school with 6,000 students and 3,000 boys. Again, critcal mass worked in his favor although he is a great coach. Historically, Saint Francis Prep enrolls more male freshmen than all of the stduents at Stepianc and Iona Prep combined.

    This data nugget took some time to find on the web, but the City of Yonkers school populaton has dropped by 17,000 since 1980. Where did these young people and their families go? Pearl River? Mahopac? Lakeland? Valhalla? Bedford?

    Also note that Catholic school enrollment in Westchetsre County has dropped by half since 1980. As a result, Cardinals O’Connor and Egan have closed many schools such as Saint Matt’s in Hastings which procuded several great Section 1 and Iona Prep players (e.g. Chris Murphy who played the point and heped Vic Quirilo win Iona’s 2nd BB crown BB). Sadly, more Catholic schools will close in Yonkers and elsewhere during this recession.

    A well-respected and connected AAU coach purports that the City of Yonkers has at least 30 great BB players who are not in uniform at any of the 5 high schools because of poor grades and attendance records. Yes, many great BB players come from poverty-striken areas since the 1920s (Joe Lapchick). But today, a D-I coach will never see them or they will not predict academcially vis-a-vis the NCAA Clearinghouse.

    In closing, Mother Teresa was a great “coach” so to speak and there is no doubt that she had God on her side at all times. But this “coach” couldn’t overcome the poverty and critical mass variables in Calcutta by simply saying, “Our Lady of Victory, Pray for Us.”

    P.S. Did Tony DeMatteo leave Roosevelt at the right time because he saw Yonkers’ football talent was now at NR, North Rockland, Carmel, and Iona Prep or did he leave to coach his son and collect a well-earned pension as a Tier 1 retiree? I can only frame the question, but don’t know the answer.

36. Mike February 1st, 2009 at 8:37 am

    Hoops fan – one more thought.

    Please pick the worst coach in Section 1 or the CHSAA in your opionion (but don’t name him on the blog). Then imagine the 2008-2009 win-loss record if he had the following players:

    5 – Kareem (Lew Alcindor as a high school player)
    4 – any average or below average power forward
    3 – any average or below average small forward
    2 – Tony Taylor
    1 – Jordon Bonner
    Bench – any average or below average group consisting of 7 players

    Offense: Jordon give the ball to Lew and Tony.

    Defense: Jordon and Tony overplay at all times and Lew will cover any backdoor cuts until you recover.

    Record: 27-0 with a federation crown in AA, A, B, C, or D.

    The bottom line is that coaches make marginal differenes when genuine talent is present and they can moderate differences when it is not. In other words, coaching is overrated and players do not receive enough credit until they make it to the NBA. Then we don’t really remember coaches – we remember Michael, Kobe, Larry, or Lebron.

37. Hoops fan February 3rd, 2009 at 7:14 pm

    Mike,
    I really enjoy our exchange here and I impressed with your research. I’ll try to answer a few questions for you.

    1) The lowest paid coaches with no benefits can easily be found coaching in the CHSAA. They make next to no money – they do it because they love the game and working with the kids. I would bet you the worst paid Yonkers coach makes more than any coach at any CHSAA school.

    2) if your theory is true that the population of Yonkers has dropped by 20% since the 70’s and that correlates into players, I’d expect to see somewhere near a 20% drop in DI ballplayers that come out of Yonkers. The drop since the 70’s in ballplayers coming out of Yonkers is probably well over 100% at this point.

    3) if you’re suggesting the people from Yonkers are going to Pearl River, Mahopac, Lakeland, Bedford, or Valhalla you’re probably right – but those places aren’t turning out ballplayers either, so one ingredient must be missing (I saw its coaching).

    4) Your analogy of a team with Lew Alcindor, Tony Taylor and Jordan Bronner is a great one for me. Lew Alcindor was a spindly, 6’8” freshman without a ton of coordination at Power. Lots of practice and good coaching made him into a tremendously sound fundamental player by the time he was a senior. I remember people saying he could play for the Knicks in the Garden after a Power game and probably start. Had not been developed by good coaches, his high school coach, Jack Donohue, was a coaching legend – he probably wouldn’t have been as good as he was.

    Tony Taylor is another great example. As a freshman he was a very good player on the freshman team at Stepinac. Could anyone have predicted who good he would be as a freshman? No one. He worked hard, played in a good system for him, had good coaching (also importantly from his dad) and became a major DI basketball player who is contributing as a freshman.

    Bronner isn’t a great example because he came in as a freshman phenom and I haven’t seen as much development in his game so far at Iona as I saw in Taylor at Stepinac. That could have something to do with different coaching styles or the kids individually – I don’t know.

    If we put a below average coach coaching Lew Alcindor – I think he likely becomes another seven footer – what made him great was his coordination and fundamentals – he himself will say he learned those things at Power and at UCLA. If you put the worst coach in Section 1 coaching Tony Taylor there is no way he is starting this year at GW, he might not even be playing DI. Tony is exactly the kind of kid who needed to play in the right system where he could show his stuff. Tony would’ve awe college coaches with his jumping ability, strength or speed. What happens with Bronner remains to be seen.

38. Hoops fan February 3rd, 2009 at 7:21 pm

    Also,
    1) I don’t know why Dematteo left Roosevelt other than hearing about wanting to coach his son – that would be a pretty hard thing to disagree wtih, particularly coming from that guy. I have no reason to believe otherwise.

    2) Just to clarify, I certainly wasn’t suggesting above that Yonkers should have as many great ballplayers as NYC. My point was clear that there was no huge dropoff in players during or in the aftermath of NYC’s fiscal crisis in the 70’s. There was in Yonkers. I was trying to disprove your point about fiscal crises hurting youth basketball – it doesn’t seem true at all in the case of NYC. The best basketball players generally come from rough economic backgrounds, generally speaking.

    3) Lastly, I’m sure there are 30 ballplayers in Yonkers who don’t suit up for their high schools. Part of being an effective coach is reaching out to those kids and getting as many as possible onto a court and into class. You think Coach Cimmino never did that in MV? That is part of running a good program – it also happens to be good for the kids who are being reached out to.

39. Class C Fan February 3rd, 2009 at 10:28 pm

    Hoops Fan,

    Why knock the coaches at Mahopac, Lakeland, Fox Lane, Pearl River and Valhalla. True they are not basketball factories, they are schools that have coaches that work very hard. And last check all of the schools mentioned had winning records. Lakeland is the best team in Class A except for Peekskill, Mahopac is having a great season in Coach Downes 2nd year. Pearl River plays as hard as any team in Section One and is a final four team in Class A more often than not. Fox Lane is improving every year under coach Violante. Valhalla is until now the best team in class C this year, James Jensen will be a recruited player next year. I don’t get the knock against these programs. No they are not on the level of the elites but their coaches work just as hard with the talent that they have. Every school you mentioned has a winning record this year.
    You sound like someone who has never had to put the time in to build a program from the ground up, like the coaches of the schools you mentioned have had to do. You don’t need to disparage those programs to make your points..especially when you are wrong.

40. Hoops fan February 4th, 2009 at 9:42 am

    Class C Fan,
    I certainly didn’t mean to disparage any of the programs you mentioned. My sentence about coaching was only in reference to Yonkers. I realize I may have said it in a clumsy way, but Mike was arguing that a lot of the talented players/families who used to play in Yonkers had now moved to these places mentioned which explained why Yonkers hasn’t had as many talented players as years ago. The whole discussion was about college basketball players and I pointed out that these schools hadn’t exactly been producing a huge surpless of college basketball players since the 70’s which was part of Mike’s argument that people fled Yonkers for these places. I have the utmost respect for any HS coach who puts in the time with his time. You’re right that all of the teams I mentioned Mahopac, Lakeland, Valhalla, Pearl River are having excellent, winning seasons and are very well coached. Fox Lane is kind of in a different category because they have over the years had a bunch of great players come out of there.

41. Class C Fan February 4th, 2009 at 9:54 am

    Hoops Fan,

    Thanks, I’m glad we are on the same page. Hopefully the arrival of Coach Rizzo will lead to stabilty and success for Gorton. Yonkers H.S. is to be commeneded for their successful season, Lincoln always seems to be on the cusp of making noise in Class AA. I have seen every game at the County center since 1970, Mike’s point along with yours are accurate. Have a Great Day

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