Late Knight in Oregon
-
- December
- 30
Los Angeles power Dominguez held off Mount Vernon in the final minute and beat the Knights, 60-57, in tonight’s Les Schwab Invitational semifinal in Hillsboro, Oregon.
I watched the entire game on the streaming video, with my puppy sleeping on my lap.
The Knights certainly had their chances. The game was tight throughout. They played inspired in the first half, leading 28-27 at the break, before a sluggish third quarter allowed Dominguez to take control.
Mount Vernon fell into an early seven-point hole before tying it at the end of the first quarter and leading for all of the second.
Sherrod Wright didn’t have his best game. He did a great job creating his shot but he just couldn’t knock enough down. Jabarie Hinds and Vaughan Allen played well and kept Mount Vernon in the game down the stretch. The Knights, though, had too many empty possessions and weren’t patient enough in the final minutes and Dominguez simply hit just enough free throws.
Not a bad effort for Mount Vernon, which is 4-1.
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on Tuesday, December 30th, 2008 at 1:26 am by Kevin Devaney Jr..
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Josh Thomson has done some of everything since joining The Journal News in March 2003. He began working for the Gannett weeklies during the winter of 2002 as a freelance writer. He joined the daily staff soon after and has since covered various high school and pro sports. Away from sportswriting, Josh lives in Westchester and spends his free time either with his wife, Sarah, or expertly managing his various championship-winning fantasy sports teams. He's visited 21 major-league baseball stadiums and insists that Fenway Park and Wrigley Field are the best by far. Josh graduated from Carmel High School in 1998, then went to Boston University, where, in 2002, he received a degree in communications with a minor in history.
Video quality is good, but its all buffering, alot of stoppage.
Good to see MV play top notch competition year in and year out
Seems like Dominguez cant convert important free throws, take advantage, foul and get possesions
MV lost by 3, to me, i think that they should of won the game with the chances that Dominguez let them stick around with their missing free throws late in the 4th quarter.
Dominguez wins, 61-57… Seemed like a good game from what I could see…
60-57
I know Hamilton is ineligible, but two other D1 recruits (Woods and Moore) for Dominguez didn’t play in their previous game in this tournament. My feed was awful so I couldn’t tell, but did they play tonight?
Woods did play but did not score. No Moore is on their roster.
Great game, in a great tournament. Sherrod has to play well against such high level competition.
Did Jordan Hamilton play? Does anyone have a link for the box score?
boss,
Here is the link.
http://highschoolsports.oregonlive.com/game/score/232527/
Dominguez didnt look quick….lol
It probably won’t be Mt Vernon’s only loss this year. No one is having to get talked down from a bridge because they thought Mt Vernon couldn’t loose.
Iona fans,
Don’t get all mad when people get all over Iona when you let that truth clown speak for you.
Mack from Iona lives in MV. You steal from MV and you got nothing but smack to say about them.
Now thats for sure… just ask Bishop Maginn. And by the way Jayden, if you get on top of a bridge…dont be surprised if nobody trys to talk you down.
Peekytown,
When have you read anyone talking “smack” about MV? Jayden, why don’t you get so indignant when a Peekskill fan makes the absurd comments that some of them do? Peekytown, since you’re such an expert on MV, you must know that Mack went to Mount St Michael junior high, not a MV public junior high. You still want to make those comments?
Yes, and I can see why Mack who rushed for 400 yds against St Anthonys and helped lead Iona Prep to a 12-0 season on the Football field as a junior and will be a recruited player into college for football would leave Mt Vernon.
Who’s football team/program is how shall we say…”challenged” gee Peekytown, try and get a grip will ya!
Maybe he should have played football at Peekskill…right?
Peekytown
Before you say something you should get your facts straight because Mack lives in the Bronx-
Also Iona is not stealing players from anybody because the players and their families decide if they want to attend Iona-
Mack lives in the bronx! Get it straight!!! He lives in the Yankee stadium area, last time I checked that is not MV..
Hoops Fan and Iona Power,
The Truth, put a lol, which means laugh out loud to a Mt Vernon loss. He is an Iona fan. Nobody thought Iona’s loss Sunday was funny. Where is your outrage? Has anyone brought up Iona’s loss to Bishop Ford last year, as he has with Bishop Maginn. I think this guy has not represented Iona well. No CHSAA, or Iona fan seems to have a problem with what he is saying under his various names, on behalf of Iona. He was not kind to Peekskill before their game either. I remember that, so what am I suppose to say to Peekskill fans now.
If a Peekskill fan, or any other fan made fun of Iona’s loss, I would be the first to denounce it, so you do the same. That Peekskill fan’s comment came 2 hours after “The Truth” laughed about a Mt Vernon loss. Did you hear the “Why is Mt Vernon in Oregon when the kids had to go door to door” comment. You guys must not have had a problem with it, but that was a terrible thing to say.
Hoops Fan, this is the same guy under the name “Observer” broke up our nice discussion last weekend, about old time basketball. He said this is a Westchester blog, and you were not too happy about that.
Peekytown
You are a total idiot- First of all Jeffrey Mack choose to attend Iona Prep becase of the sports and academics- Second of all he wants to play for a school that has a complete sports program and competes in the BEST HIGH SCHOOL FOOTBALL LEAGUE IN THE STATE WHICH IS THE CHSFL AAA.
Just in case tyou missed it or you were stuck in a hole Iona was 12-0 and RANKED #3 in the MSG TRI STATE POLLright behing Don Bosco- Maybe that will explain his decision to a simple minded fool like yourself.
Mt Vernon leads Westview 45-24 at the half.
Ionafootball
Don Bosco was ranked 1 and Iona was ranked 3. How was Iona right behind Don Bosco. You don’t know about your own team and you can’ t count. You are the fool.
Mt Vernon winning 69-41 after 3.
Jayden,
If The Truth is posting under several names making the same point, i don’t think that makes much sense, obviously. If he was “observer” that made a bunch of ridiculous statements last week in the middle of a good discussion I have even less respect for his opinions.
However, I read his post above using “lol” – I didn’t think that was directed to make fun of a MV loss – clearly losing to a program like Dominguez is never something to be made fun of. the “lol” came trying to make fun of your previous comments about Iona not being a quick team. I happen to agree with you that Iona’s overall team quickness is not its biggest strength (of course Mack is quick as well as Bronner, but overall their quickness is not their biggest strength as a team). I didn’t think his joke about Dominguez not being a quick team was particularly witty or funny, but I also didn’t read into it being offensive to MV.
Also, his comment about the MV team having to go “door-to-door” to raise funds I read before is something you took offense to. I must be interpreting it differently than you have and I’d be open to hearing your take on it. The way I took it was his saying that if a basketball program almost didn’t happen this year, why are they travelling across the country to play in a tournament that obviously costs money to get to. I think he’s wrong in his assumption because I know many of these big tournament pay for the high profile teams expenses to travel. So therefore they weren’t going door to door to raise money to save the sports program to then dish out tens of thousands of dollars to fly to a tournament – rather their reputation probably affords them an all expenses paid trip.
Peekytown,
I’m not sure it sounds too smart to be arguing with someone about the semantics of whether “right behind” Don Bosco would be legitimate in the #3 ranking of the entire tri-state area instead of just the #2. I think most linguistics experts would agree that #3 could be “right behind” #1 in most situations. If you’re in the top three in the entire tri-state area of any sport, you have a right to be quite happy about that. No disrespect to Peekskill, but when was the last time they were in the top 3 in the tri-state area in any sport? Not many can say that.
Technically Mack lives in new ro
Hoops fan,
You are right, the Mt Vernon School District does not pay for such tournament trips. I know that, and you know that, but he obviously does not take the time to find those things out before he writes. He also brought that topic out of left field, so what was his intentions? What was his Bishop Maginn comment all about? Was that ok with you?
Hoops fan, we like basketball, and we would rather be talking about basketball. A week and a half or so ago, Mt Vernon’s game with St Dominics was cancelled. This same guy went on a tirade, and called out Mt Vernon, and their Coach, and labled them scared for not playing Iona. I waited, but no Iona, or CHSAA fan objected to what he was saying. Therefore, I went into the topic of Iona having players from all over the area. You, and Iona Power were all over me.
If someone like that, under the banner of an Iona fan attacks other programs, why are you guys surprised that people will begin to go after Iona. He started going after Peekskill, and as soon as some Peekskill fans started hitting back, you guys came out again. Check all the past blogs. They are all available to see. The communications start civil, until this guy starts to put people on the defense. No one is going to have their program attacked, and not respond to it. Unfortunately, Iona, a very nice program, is being view by some, of having arrogant fans. However, it is only one fan who cares so little about Iona, that he behaves this way, and makes Iona look bad.
Mt Vernon won 87-64.
Peekytown,
I guess you do not have your facts straight about what district mack lives – I guess that makes you the fool for coming out with misinformation in trying to stir the pot-
Jayden-
With all due respect it seems like you have a problem with anyone who backs Iona- You make it sound like no one that supports other programs act arrogant- I did see that someone from MV equate the Peekskill-Iona game to a B rated movie- Inside we all know that you have a bias against Iona and that is all right- It is your right-
Ionapower,
All due respect but when when one of your fans calls a respected coach in Bobby Cimmino scared to play a game he has crossed the line. There is no need for a personal attacks.
Jayden
I am officially on the bandwagon ignoring any future comments from Iona Power. The guy is here just to stir the pot, do’t waste your wise words and time on this guy. MV comes back from Oregon and not County Center a much better team today. 1 tuff loss to the eventual champs. Did not see if Sharrod made All Tourney Team, Jabari may have been the steal leader. Big boys played surprisingly well.
Rice got crushed by Findlay Prep in The Rock Holiday Classic. All of the nychoops.net top 10 teams now have at least 1 loss. It will be interesting to see if Peekskill cracks the list. They deserve to.
honestly, who cares where Mack lives? you guys are all losers trying to say he lives in NR, MV, Bronx, etc. Its all the same and doesnt make a difference, the kid goes to Iona, that is his and his families choice. Shut the F up already please!
Jayden:
There is no reason at all to respond or pay attention to anything The Truth or whoever he is writes. It is nothing but rabble rousing BS. Flat out ignore anything he writes. You, Hoops Fan, Iona Power and the other insightful posters, do not need to be going back and fourth and arguing due to some classless jerk.
I know this is off-topic, but Poughkeepsie defeated Lourdes 72-51 to successfully defend its Dutchess County Coache’ Association Tournament title:
http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/article/20081231/SPORTS/81231002/1002/sports&referrer=NEWSFRONTCAROUSEL
Photo gallery:
http://www.poughkeepsiejournal.com/apps/pbcs.dll/gallery?Avis=BK&Dato=20081230&Kategori=SPORTS&Lopenr=812300802&Ref=PH
Happy New Year, everyone…
It was Durand Scott first time back and he only managed 10 points as a result. Shane Southwell also couldnt play because he isnt eligible yet. Im not saying Rice would have won if these two could have played at 100% but it would have been a different game IMO.
Here are the top 10 rankings if anyone would like to see.
http://nychoops.rivals.com/content.asp?CID=894357
In the Poughkeepsie vs. Lourdes game, mentioned above by Jeff P, Dayvon Whitaker scored 26 points, making an eventual matchup with Peekskill’s Brickhouse even more interesting. He and the rest of the PK team looked more energized and sharper than in some of their recent victories (they are now 8-0). Brandon James also had a good game, with 14 points, 16 rebounds, and three steals. They were using some new defensive strategies, which seemed to be effective. The Peekskill coach was in the stands, and I’m sure he was taking notes.
Hoops Fan
Your right about the lol comment and the going “door to door”. But, your wrong about me making comments under another name as thats Jayden’s personal fantasy about me. Any how its good to see that you got the true meaning about me poking at Jayden’s quick comments about Iona.
Also, after getting private funding for going door to door to have an athletic program sending the basketball team cross country sends the wrong message to the community.
After Iona crushed St Dominic’s and Mt Vernon’s game was weathered out, I dont think there is any reason to play St Dom’s anymore/reschedule when you can play Iona(right around the corner) and have a big draw(raise money for the program).
Now’ I know Jayden and the MV pundints will say there’s no reason for MV to play Iona because they are below them.. but if they crushed St Dom’s then why continue to pursue a game with St Doms?
As far as HR’s is concerned…when you get your lips off Jayden’s ass take a deep breath and try to get some perspective and have someone explain to you what class is.
I’m sure that my opionion about Iona good or bad does not take or add to the great tradition they have built. However , its sad that Jayden and HR’s world seems to revolve around this blog in that what is written on it somehow in their opionion trancends reality.
Hey maybe Peekskill is capable of beating both MV and Iona…I seem to rember reading a claim like that on this blog once or twice.
Sherrod All Star,
Wright made the All Star Team… Jabari leads the Tournament in steals and most importantly MV wins the Sportmanship Award, pretty sure that makes Bobby happy.
spacecadet54
I guess your comment about Peekskill – Iona equating to a
B rated movie was not infammatory- If you make comments like that then what do you expect from some people who follw Iona.
HRS,
I think you’re right on.
Jayden,
I understand your points and agree with a lot of it. I think you, IonaPower and I have essentially the same feelings about ridiculous comments on the blog. IonaPower and I tend to respond to ridiculous comments directed at CHSAA schools. You seem to respond to ridiculous comments directed at MV or public schools. Neither of us tend to respond to ridiculous comments aimed at the others’ predispositions (probably in large part because we know the other of us will likely address it). Maybe all of us are being a little oversensitive to comments because after all, people are entitled to ridiculous opinions in this forum. I try to object when someone has their facts wrong. Having a “bad” or “wrong” opinion, however, is anyone’s right.
Congratulations to MV on a very strong showing out West. Dominguez didn’t really impress me as a great team (they seemed kind of sloppy and out of control at times, though obviously very talented) – I thought MV could’ve pulled it out. Vaughn Allen seemed to have a great tournament. If he keeps playing that well and Odayne Clarke can step it up they’re going to be dangerous in the post-season.
Some interesting Basketball news –
Bishop Loughlin won a big New Jersey Tourney that included a win over highly touted Linden- It was reported that the atmosphere in Paterson was nasty toward Loughlin because of the disdain for NY Basketball powers- I am looking forward to seeing Mount Vernon play at home against Linden- It is only one of the few games that MV plays at home during the weekends- Too bad MV does not play their friday games at night-
Ford lost to Jamesville Dewitt by double digits- Ford was coming off a big win over Simon Gratz- Ford and Jamesville are going to be threats to an Iona-Peekskill possible rematch in the Federations.
St. Raymonds lost a few games in North Carolina which was expected with all the youth on that teams-
Lincoln probably has the toughest non confernce schedule in the country- They seem to be playing a nationl power every other day.
Rice will be getting Shane Southwell into the lineup next week which is big.
Huge game on Sunday between CTK and St. Rays.
It was good to see that Sherrod Wright has offers from USC, UMASS, Xavier amd South Carolina according to Scouts.com-
St. Rayns played Word of God (John Wall, the #’1 player in the nations team) down in NC
Wait a minute.. Did Jordan hamilton from Dominguez play against MV? He is a stud going to Texas! Let’s be real if he plays it is not a 3 point loss. More like 15 or 20.. Not taking anything away from MV but that is the truth! How would they have done without Sherrod against Dominguez?
I agree if MV claims they have nothing to gain from playing Iona ( Class A ) then do not make up that game against St Dom’s. They should bump them and slide in Iona. Why would they want to play a team Iona beat by 36 points? Will that game make MV better?
Jeff Mack lives in New Ro, Volkel live in Yonkers and Bronner Live in Mount Vernon. Who Cares!!!!!
What New Yorkers need to learn is this, it doesnt matter where you live(or from) but where you are!!!
Florida HS football teams(St. Thomas Aquinas) knows that, Oak Hill basketball knows that. Don Bosco knows that.
Please stop with who lives where, and start playing and practicing better. And natural talent does help. dahh!!!
I thought New Yorkers Start trends? , Now I don’t know about that. Florida, CA,TX and Ohio, have us beat, get with it new york. (lower case letters)
for the people who still don’t get it.
Mack lives in Bronx, Volkel in Pleasantville, and Bronner in Tarrytown.
Hoops Fan,
Thanks
Listen, public and catholic schools should never be compared! When you can recruit a player like most catholics do you have an advantage over the public school. However, I am not saying that some publics have never recruited a kid but it is far more prevalent in the catholics and private schools. Furthermore, I think it’s ok to go out and get players cause when your competition is doing it you have no choice if you want to compete! Now I will say when you recruit locally it is not the same as regionally or nationally like St. Thomas Aquinas in football or Oak Hill in basketball! They are drawing from all over their state region and nationally! They should only play schools that do that as well! But, we all know that is not possible!
I don’t know about other conspiracies but that dude The Truth and hoopla 15 are the same dudes.
no we are not!
Just like Tony Taylor lived in MV and Played for Stepinac,now is doing very well for Goerge Washington, he would have drowned in MV with to many guards. better for him to play in Stepinac, Same with Darlos James who lived in MV , played for Iona, he would have drowned MV with all those CB now will play for college somewhere. It is what is better for the kids sometime.
spacecadet54 and Jayden and Peekywood are all Jayden. He also has several other alter egos when needed.
ionaprep crazed,
I actually agree with what you are saying. Just to add a point, players develope differently. Some players opt leave Mt Vernon because they feel that they are not going to get playing time. However, those decisions are made early, and some of those players end up to be better than the players they thought were ahead of them. Tony Taylor was afraid of having to play behind Ketema Brooks. However, Tony Taylor ended up to be miles ahead of Ketema in talent.
Mike Buffalo did not feel he would cut the mustard, and went to Wings Academy. He is now a great player. Public schools will always lose players, that just how it goes.
also some kids leave because they feel they would be treated unfairly. because of Adults.
ionaprep crazed,
Now you are seeing a big exodus of players from high profile schools, to higher profile schools. Now the ESPN is heavy into the HS game, The CHSAA AA is now losing players to out of state teams.
Christ the King won the Bojangles tournament. I have seen both St Ray’s, and Christ the King this year. Both lost allot, by Christ the King is clearly the better team.
Like I said, no response….........
I am reading something about Jorden Hamilton being denied a hardship for being granted a 5th year of eligibility. Now before we go off on this topic, can anyone shed some light on this subject. You have a roster of legal players, and thats what you play with. Dominguez beat Fairfax without him and I would think the ratings systems have considered the fact that he is not playing anymore. Like I said, I may be way off base because I don’t have the facts. “I Disagree” you don’t mind if I ask my alter ego?
Jorden Hamilton story
http://www.burntorangenation.com/2008/11/21/666836/recruiting-spotlight-jorda
Jayden and ionaprepcrazed,
I basically agree with you as well. The story I heard (this is probably 3rd hand info, admittedly) about Tony Taylor was that in 8th grade the MV coaches seemed to favor Ketema Brooks, so Tony opted for Stepinac – which turned out to be a great choice for him. It doesn’t get mentioned a lot on these blogs, but I’ve been watching basketball around here for a long time and I can’t think of anyone who improved as much over their four years of high school as Tony Taylor did. Think about it – Tony played freshmen ball his freshman year, then started his sophomore year on the JV before being moved up mid-season, then two years later gets a major DI scholarship. I can think of other kids in the area who played JV as a sophomore and ended up in the MAAC or at another mid-major (Kevin Hyland from Stepinac/Holy Cross is one), but I can’t think of any playing major college basketball who started their sophomore year on the JV in a long time.
Since no one seems to mind comparing Stepinac to Iona, it will be interesting to see the improvement in the games of the five Iona juniors who played Varsity last year as sophomores and all played JV as freshmen (Bronner actually was the starting Varsity PG as a freshmen). Each of these kids were dominant as freshman. Carissimo, Voelkel and Bronner all apparently are recruited based on their AAU play. Carissimo seems to have improved a lot from last season. I was very impressed by Voelkel last year as a sophomore, for him to really show improvement on this level it would really have to be on the perimeter. Bronner seemed to be a future star as a freshmen – has a freshmen ever started on the Varsity at Iona before? I didn’t much improvement for Bronner in his sophomore year at all – I think he might’ve been stiffled in that offense, though this year he seems to have improved his offensive game (it could be the new offense).
the reason bronner played varsity as a freshman at iona is because he played varsity as an 8th grader at sleepy hollow hs. once you play a single varsity game in NYS you can never go back to the jv. otherwise he would have been on the jv
Hoops fan
I believe Bronner is the only Freshman to start on the Iona Varsity- I was told the administration frowns upon Freshman playing on the Varsity- In Football Darlos James was the only player to ever play on the Varsity as Freshman-
As far as development of players I believe Andre Pope as improved greatly from his Junior year to Senior year and will get some good offers- People forget that he broke his wrist last summer which hurt the beginning of his Junior year and he also dealt with I believe the loss of his father-
Carrisimo has taken a big step from his sophomore to Junior year He is very aggresive going to the basket which I believe was a result of playing for the Guachos-
Bronner being the PG is trying to get everyone involved has hurt his scoring somewhat- He is a good defender and unselfish player- He would probably be a 20ppg scorer at many schools-
Voelkill needs to be more aggresive shooting the ball- He passes up too many shots and Iona does not run enough plays for him- I think these players are all very unselfish which is why you will not see too many 30 point games from an individual.
Chemistry is a big part of a team and I do know that these players are unselfish and support each other-From what I am hearing chemistry is becoming an issue at New Rochelle with Mason-(I have heard this from 3rd Hand sources). But I also know that during his freshman year at Iona their were a few things that occurred that made a few people scratch their heads-
Anyone have any New Year’s Section 1 AA Final Four Predictions? I want to say MV, New Ro, Gorton/WP or PK… I like Gorton alot and if they continue to gel Gorton, PK, New Ro and possibly WP will battle it out for the right to play MV… Can’t wait for league play to start so we can really see where teams are at…
Sleepy,
Bronner started on Varsity as a freshman at Iona, so surely the reason he played on the varsity is because they needed him.
IonaPower,
Good points.
it turned out they needed him. but when he let iona know he was coming it was understood that he was required to be on the varsity by the rules. without this requirement he would of been on the jv. iona frowns upon freshman playing varsity but had no choice in this matter. believe me, a lot of parents of juniors and seniors on the team were not happy, and made it known . also, if you leave a public after 9th grade the chsaa makes you sit out an entire season.
sleepy,
good information. Also, if you leave a public school after any grade (not just 9th) the CHSAA requires you to sit out a full season. Thats why it rarely happens.
voelkel left pleasantville for two reasons the coach is terrible their and second of all he was getting recruited while in the fall before his freshman year playing at pleasantville which i think is absolutely terrible, iona fans if you ever win a championship it will be because you cheated.
Sleepy good info, never knew that rule.
So let me get this straight- If Iona Wins they cheated because Brian Voelkel left Pleasantville where he never suited up for their Basketball program- So according to some idiots it was REQUIRED for Brian Voelkel to go to Pleasantville because he lived in that district- The fact is when I hear some of these small time people talk like that who probably hjave never been to a game outside of Westchester it is no wonder that he chose Iona in the first place- The facts are that Iona offers WAY MORE than Pleasantville would EVER offer to a student athlete-
When I hear CRAP LIKE THIS IT IS WHY AOME PEOPLE ON IONA HAVE TO RETALIATE BECAUSE OF SMALL TOWN STUPIDITY!!!!
Earlier, there was a comment which I waited around to see if anyone would respond too. I know that some crazy stuff have been flosting around this season, but this comment shows the level of insanity things have gotten to.
Someone suggest that since St Dominics lost to Iona by 35 points, Mt Vernon should cancel their sheduled game with St Dominics and play Iona. In the history of sports, on any level, in any sport, by any gender, I have never heard of a team canceling a scheduled game with a team, because some other team blew them out. That would be the ultimate sign of disrespect. That is also just plain nuts. The crazy thing is, to suggest something like that obviously sat well with fans around here.
Does St Dominics, a fellow CHSAA member deserve treatment like that. Is it just me, or does anyone else think that a comment like that is the dumdest thing they ever heard. Hoops Fan, where are you. I wonder what a NYC or LI CHSAA fan would think, after reading what Westchester fans really think about their fellow CHSAA members.
St. Dominics from an historical standpoint is at least on the same level as Iona so for someone to suggest MV cancel a game with St. Dominics is outrageous- St. Domincs this year beat Loughlin so they are a very good team- I also saw them beat a good White Plains team this year-They are in the Great Florida shootout tourney which is a big event and they also are playing Linden and Christ the King-
St. Dominics is a very good program that deserves respect.
Jayden I think you need to realize that Hoops Fan and myself cannot monitor this board and check for every CHSAA fan or Iona Fan or Stepinac fan who makes a comment that you do not agree with or might be plain stupid- Not everyone will possess the knowledge to make valued entries on this board.
Jayden-
A comment was made that stated that if Iona wins the CHSAA A city championship that they will have cheated because Voelkill did not go to Pleasantville-
What is your opinion of that comment?
The conversations on this blog about Iona recruiting are always ridiculous. Kids are always going to leave for private schools, 95% of the time its for academic reasons. Its always Iona too. People don’t complain when Stepinac wins the football AA championsip with recruited kids. People dont complain when rye country day reaches the new england football bowl championships with a line up filled with Harrison, mamaroneck kids etc. Its just ridiculous.
Iona Power,
That comment is outrageous too. However, the biggest perplexity I have this year, is that Iona fans, can’t understand why they are a target. Since the New Rochelle game, Iona fans took on the Westchester basketball community, declared themselves the best, demanded teams to play them, and did not win with dignity. That will make enemies.
I think Stepinac fans played it right. They actually won something, and they did not shove it down the throats of every other fan. I haven’t heard of anything from Rye Country Day either. Win with dignity, show respect, and no on will feel they need to dissect your program
Who ever the poster was that said the reason Volkel left P’ville was because of a terrible coach is insane. Coach DelleBovi hands down is one of the top five coaches in the section. Stop with the assinine statements.
Jayden
I think you will find that every school will have people who are out of control- The words of a few knuckleheads should never tarnish the accomplishments of player and team.
The Pleasantville coach used to coach St. Raymonds and Manhattan College- It is safe to say that Pleasantville is very lucky to have him.
From what I heard a few years back was that Voelkel left Collegiate after 7th grade to attend Pleasantville because of the extremely high academic demands at Collegiate. That makes sense to me , because why would his father let him attend another “B” basketball school when he was coaching the same.
I heard he was practicing with the the Pleasnantville Varsity in 9th grade but left the team before the season began, to be elligible for the CHSAA the follwing year.
I think it was more because of what his buddies Bronner and Carissimo were selling him, than anything to do with the Pleasnatville or Iona coach.
Collegiate won the class B federation last year without him. Why then would he want to play for a different class B team other than Collegiate. Iona was his choice to be on a larger stage. Now he is in the conversation as a top player from the area which he may not have been playing with Pleasantville.
Iona Power,
I know you can only control what you write. I am only stating the obvious. People are only reacting to what they read. Don’t take it personal.
Peekskill alum you must be a phs grad you can’t spell Howie
Hoops fan and Iona Power,
Have you guys followed the CHSAA AA this year? Who do you think will come out on top? To me, Rice should, but Christ the King is really playing well.
The Pleasantville coach used to coach Manhattan College and St Raymonds HS ? What happenned ? You would think that the St Ray’s and Manhattan jobs would lead to a possible bigger college job, not Pleasantville HS?
Jayden-
Rice for whatever reason has not played a lot of games- Not having Lamont Jones prevented them from being an elite team- The transfer from All Hallows Shane Southwell is a great player-
St. Raymonds is young but talented- By the end of the year they could be the team to beat- Losing the two seniors to South Kent was a killer-
CTK- They have a new Coach and the graduation of a talented senior class make them unknown- Their coach was on the record saying they did not play a hard non conference schedule- They blew that game against Boys and Girls earlier- I was told they had that game won. Corey Edwards the PG who is a sophomore is on the same level as Jabarie Hinds at MV-
I watched All Hallows beat Stepinac and it was obvious that Carey the Head Coach at All Hallows has a rebuilding job if hey want to get to the level of Rice- It will be interesting to see how Iona doew against All Hallows.
The other CHSAA AA schools are below the likes of Rice.
The CHSAA AA is very young- I have heard the freshman classes at Xaverian, Holy Cross, CTK and St. Raymonds are excellent and that in a year the CHSAA AA will be back to their typical standards-
The NJ Catholic teams like St. Patricks, St Benedicts and St. Anthony are right now a few notches above the elite CHSAA AA teams-
This is a weird year because I believe Mount, Ford and Iona are in the overall top 6 in the CHSAA along with Rice, CTK and St. Rays.
Jayden,
Honestly I (along with many others I would hope) did not respond to the comment about MV cancelling a game against a possible team because of a mis-match of talent. Of course you are right, and who ever suggested it has never been involved in teaching or coaching a kid in any capacity, at least in my opionion. Lets see, what message are we telling our kids no reason to play the game because we are going to win anyway. Thats smart, how about teaching kids to show respect for the game and giving the bench a chance to play and getting some expierence. I spent a lot of years on a baseball field teaching kids not just the game but about the principles of life thru compitition.
This is a great forum, and some valuable information gets passed along to the people who follow HS basketball. I guess we have to take the bad with the good and read the outrageous comments from the boneheads. Keep fighting.. LOL
spacecadet54,
Obviously my comment was not directed towards you. There are some really good basketball minds on this blog, but the train gets off the track too much.
Iona Power,
Where would you fit Loughlin? They are hard to figure out. Last year it looked like this season would be a dog fight between St Raymonds, and Bishop Loughlin. Then some of the best talent from both teams left the state.
I would put Bishop Ford close to the level of St Raymonds, and Iona could give Christ the King, and Bishop Loughlin all they could handle. Rice would be favored against Iona. It would be interesting to see how Iona would handle Rice’s press, which is consistantly the best around.
Loughlin would smack Iona. Iona wouldnt be able to handle Trevon Hamlet or Jayvaughn Pinkston at ALL. Rice is the favorite to win the CHSAA this year…they havent played as many games so far because they knew they werent getting Shane until this week I think and Durand’s been hurt. Rice is the favorite to win this year. Chris the King only has a couple of top players in the city, while Rice has Durand, Shane, James Stukes, Jermaine Saunders, and 3 other seniors who will play D-1 next year. Rays is too young. If they had Kevin and Omari they would be top 5 in the country. Loughlin is the second best team in the CHSAA IMO.
boss
I would agree that Loughlin would be the favorite over Iona but the only question that I have is how come they lost to St. Dominics and then a few days later Iona beat St. Dominics by over 30 points- I know in recent games that Pinkston has been dominating- Iona would have problems with him and their guard Frazier.
Jayden-
Loughlin has always had major talent but have been inconsistent- I remember one year watching them in the semis at St. Johns loss to St Francis Prep. Loughlin had Brian Brown who went on to Ohio State-That was the year Lasalle won it with Artest-
I would say that Rice will beat Loughlin in the CHSAA AA Finals.
I also find it hard to believe that Ford does not play Loughlin or Xaverian- You would like to see these Brooklyn teams square off- It is similar to this year Mount St. Michael and even Iona not playing St. Rays- The CHSAA should follow the strategy of their football league where each year teams are seeded on their strength and placed into divisions- In football Iona – Mount play in the highest level which is the CHSFL AAA- Maybe on the basketball side the league should each year look at the overal strength from the Varsity down to the Freshman and seed all the teams- Maybe this year the league could have had Mount, Ford, and Ford in the CHSAA AA and moved down All Hallows or St. Francis etc.
Big Game this weekend with St. Rays at CTK
It’s good to see the Debate has shifted from Iona Prep to teams on their schedules instead of dream matchups… Iona is a good squad, I would love to see them play MV, but it isn’t going to happen this year… Maybe they can work something out for next, until then lets stick to the games actually on hand…
http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpage.html?res=940DEFDD1230F931A25757C0A96E948260
I guess this is why the guy is at P’Ville after Manhattan College,
Loughlin has too much height for Iona to handle. Not sure why they lost to St. Doms though. Young team, new coach, could take time, even they they went out to Jersey and just beat a good Linden team in a tough environment
usually when one team loses to another it is because the better team wins. i watched st dominics just get by white plains and then get booted by iona….tell me st doms was missing several or tell me loughlin was missing several when st doms beat them . there is no other rationale. louglin stinks if they lost to the weak st dominic team i saw in the white plains tournament.
is peekskill a top 5 team in the metro area? maybe?
Lots of good topics on this board today!
IonaPower,
I thought before Iona’s loss to Peekskill that Iona could play with all but the top 3 in the AA this year (Rice, Loughlin, Ctk) in terms of talent. I actually thought Iona had a chance to beat Peekskill by 10-20 points – I was wrong. I think Iona was exposed a bit as a team that would have a hard time playing a super fast, athletic team that played strong. If you think Peekskill has those three attributes, they are found in multiples among the AA teams in the CHSAA. For that reason, if Iona can lose to Peekskill I don’t see them matching up that well with Rice, Loughlin or Ctk at this point. Had Iona done to Peekskill what they did to St Doms and NR I wouldn’t feel this way. St Rays or Molloy could be interesting, but I’d favor them both over Iona for now. Iona did a good job containing Tony Taylor last year (under 30 points) and I think they may be able to do the same with Russ Smith. St Rays is very big, which is one thing Iona is not, that could create big issues considering St Rays also has strong guards. I still really hope MV chooses to play Iona next year, but as far as this year is concerned, at this point, I would definitely make MV a theoretical heavy favorite.
Jayden,
I have followed the AA this year. The only thing I can be sure of is nothing is certain. Many of the AA schools struggled in the Big Apple games do to some of their top players getting in foul trouble (loughling, ctk). I don’t think the AA is deep enough to lose a top player like Pinkston and still be at the same level. In years past, a AA school could lose a star to foul trouble and have a future star come off the bench. This year, the future stars are getting groomed on the court as opposed to the bench. I think Rice is definitely the favorite for now, but I wouldn’t be surprised if Loughlin or CTK made a run in the playoffs.
IonaPower,
In regards to your comment earlier about Iona being about the same level of St Dominic’s historically in basketball I wanted to interject. Iona was excellent last year, this year and will be next year. They’ve had many solid teams over the years, have won a few A titles. Even Iona’s mediocre teams play extremely hard and could cause anyone problems. However, St Dom’s has a better basketball program than Iona in almost every possible measure – more recent DI players, more winning years, more big wins, has produced NBA players, etc. I can’t think of any metric that Iona would have over St Doms in basketball. This is no knock on Iona, St Dom’s has a great basketball tradition – just as Rick Pitino.
In regards to the idea of changing the CHSAA basketball leagues to resemble the football structure. 20 years ago the CHSAA had a one league format with the top 16 going to the A playoffs the rest going to the B playoffs (the B playoffs started around 1980). Iona had a couple teams I remember that got to the A playoffs over the years, but I don’t remember any that got anywhere close to winning a championship. Even in a great Iona year – such as this once in a generation-type class I don’t think they could compete with the elite CHSAA AA teams. Maybe I’m wrong, I just don’t see it happening. Stepinac on the other hand, did once win a CHSAA Championship (a long time ago in 1960) but came awfully close with Marty Conlon in the mid-80’s, getting to the quarters and semis his two final years (one with Fordham star and current St John’s assistant coach Fred Quartlebaum running the point). Stepinac also had several teams that got into the A playoffs several times in the 60’s and 70’s. The reason Stepinac went to the B league when the A, B, C structure was set up in the late 80’s only a couple years after Stepinac reached the semi’s and quarter’s only a couple years earlier was simple. The talent that will walk in the door for a Stepinac or Iona just isn’t going to be able to compete with the elite AA teams. Sure, many years a good Stepinac or Iona team could pick off the lower tier or mid-AA teams, but beating a Rice is a different story entirely. As much as the idea sounds nice and would probably help attract even better players to Iona or Stepinac, I just don’t see the CHSAA changing their structure anytime soon.
Jayden,
I agree with spacecadet about the suggestion for MV to drop the st doms game. That was just so ridiculous that it was obviously made by someone who never played basketball and doesn’t know much about competition and how things work. I didn’t even want to bother to refute it. Iona v. MV next year would be great. This year, its not going to happen.
First Dude,
sometimes teams have bad games and therefore win. no, i wasnt at the loughlin/doms game but I know Loughlins talent is superior to doms and they are a young team with a new coach and are learning to play together and IMO they had a bad game to lose to them.
To me, Iona is a very very solid team, but they dont have 1 thing that every game, you know they will be better than another team. They are solid guards, but against other top CHSAA teams in the area, the other teams guards are better (rice, rays, molloy, idk about loughlins guards this year). Voekel is good, but can he and the other big kid they have match up with other CHSAA teams bigs? Rays bigs are literally too big for Iona to match up with, and Rice could have a lineup later in the year where their PG and everyone else on the floor is taller than Iona’s tallest player (Durand). To overcome for these defencies, you need a superstar who can put the team on their back any game, and they dont have one that is good enough to do so. While I think Brickhouse is overrated, especialy on this website, he did just that and thats the reason that Iona lost to Peekskill. I just think that while Iona is a solid team, theres no way they can handle teams from the city due to the lack of a superstar to take over the game.
Boss,
I agree with you about Brickhouse… The kid is solid, has been and will continue to be… This site will make him out to be a major d-1 prospect sometimes… The kid is good but it’ll suck for sites like this to give him expectations that he can’t supercede… We will see how Brickhouse handles elite guards this season… I’ll be one of the first eating crow if he makes me eat my words…
Statesman, boss,
I am one person who is in love with Brickhouse. It is not about numbers, its about being a point guard who controls the team tempo, distributes the ball, and is a leader on the court. Brickhouse helps Peekskill run, get easy fast break points, and can break any press a team throws at them. Also Peekskill has managed to be consistantly good, because the are very good defensively. Peekskill has a good press, and I would bet that Brickhouse is one of the state leaders in steals. Also, he is just a Junior. Brickhouse is not the best player in Westchester, but he is the one player his team can ill afford to lose.
Hoops Fan,
You did an excellent job of breaking down The CHSAA, and St Doms. We do not always agree, but you are one of the most knowledgable people around.
The Dude,
Every team suffers bad losses. Check out the Celtics in Golden State. A team like St Dom’s is dangerous at home. They play differently at home, and they will get the benefit of the calls. A few players from the visiting team in foul trouble can change the outcome of a game. Two years ago, Mt Vernon blew out White Plains at home, and lost to them in White Plains. Home court is a big deal.
boss,
You obviously have good insight on the CHSAA AA. The players are bigger, and the defensive pressure is on a different level than in the CHSAA A. By Feburary, Rice will be tough to beat.
Just another thought. A smaller, but good offensive team plays differently, when they face a very good bigger team, who puts pressure on the ball. It is not only what the bigger team will do to you offensivly, but also what they will do to you defensivly. A team like Rice, will make it impossible to get into your offense early, will contest every shot from the perimeter, and they will control the boards, and the paint. I have seen teams run up and down the court on teams, but when they step up to play the bigger, better teams, are totally taken out of their game.
Hoops you are right on about St. Dom’s historically. They have an excellent coach and fear no one. But with that being said, they have not been strong lately in terms of talent. He also hasn’t been the top in that area over the past say 10 years. St Marys was. I do not hear them mentioned too much. When Tim Cluess was coach there(he is now at CW Post They were an outstanding top tier program. He was sending kids all over to play, in fact Danny Green on North Carolina is a St. Marys product. Since he has left they have fallen off, but they are still very competitive.
This year on this blog a lot of the talk has been about the CHSAA A and AA. About how good it is/was. I for one have chimed in about it and still stand by the statement that it may be not only best league in the the state, but in the country.. With that being said… I found a very interesting bit of information: Thought I’d share. This shocked me, but it makes since with the dominant players the public schools have churned out recently(Telfair, Stephenson, MV’s teams, Peekskill,etc…see below
“Going into every new season, people grumble about the supposed edge catholic schools have, but if you look at the numbers, it’s hard to prove. In fact, the last Catholic School to win a New York State Federation Championship was Long Island’s St. Anthony’s back in 2005, and a New York City Catholic School hasn’t won either of the large school State Championships (AA and A, and before that A and B) since 2002! The truth is, over the last 10 years, public schools have won 17 of the Federation titles awarded in the three classes, while catholic schools have won just 7, and private schools 5!
HRS,
Very interesting last paragraph. THough I think what makes the NYC CHSAA the best league in America isn’t that they have the top team in NY State every year, its the overall depth of great teams. Last year for instance, the CHSAA AA had 5 teams that were ranked in National top 25 rankings (Rice, Ctk, Holy Cross, Loughlin and St Rays). I’ve never heard of another league that can say that. The DC Catholic league, the Chicago PSAL and Chicago Catholic league, along with one of the Los Angeles public school leagues are usually considered the 5 best leagues in America by most experts. Xaverian has been down the last couple years, but without Xaverian transfers the two best PSAL teams in NYC wouldn’t be nearly as good (Lincoln, Boys & Girls). I’ve been the first to say that the CHSAA AA is having a down year in terms of talent due to all the transfers that either left or were asked to leave school. I also give credit to some of the CHSAA teams that ask to leave talents like Ashton Pankey, Devon Collier and Kevin Parrom – a lot of schools would find a way to keep kids in those situations around and playing.
Jayden,
Thanks and I certainly appreciate your knowledge of basketball as well.
absolutely 100% agree with your assessment. That is why I was so shocked about the last champ from the AA or A was in 2002. The league itself prepares you like no other due to what you mentioned..depth and talent. But what is interesting is the inability to win that last battle. The winners in order since 2002. And from what most are feeling with the CHSAA young, it could be another PS in Lincoln, Magninn or MV.
2003-Lincoln(with Telfair)
2004-Mount Vernon(Colburn, Mitchell, Benjamin, Gray, etc)
2005-Niagra Falls(Paul Harris, Johhny Flynn
2006-Mount Vernon(Mitchell, Coburn, etc)
2007-Lincoln(With Lance Stephenson)
2008-Lincoln(with Lance Stephenson)
Hoops Fan,
Last year was an incredible season for the CHSAA AA. They are always good, but some of the contest featured some of the best games any fan could ever ask for. , Holy Cross was the team to emerge, yet Holy Cross was at the end of my list of the great CHSAA AA teams last season. That was a dream season for a basketball fan.
Jayden can you give some examples of games that floored you last year?
Personally I felt the years when Omar Cook was at CTK and Barrett was at Rice were the best few years the CHSAAA had in a long time. Those CTK/Rice battles were amazing.
HRS,
I agree with you and Jayden that last year and 2000, when Omar Cook and Dre Barrett were Seniors were both amazing years in the CHSAA. Hard to say which would be better. I saw several of those duels between Barrett and Cook their last two years in school. Both were McDonald’s All-Americans their senior year, along with Taliek Brown from St Johns Prep in the CHSAA A league that year. Their junior year, Kenny Satterfield from Rice was also a McDonald’s All-American. Frankly, the best game I saw involving Barrett/Cook was probably in their junior year in the CityFinals. Not only were Barrett, Cook and Satterfield on the court. Ctk also had Zach Williams a big man who played at Ohio State and a 6-11 kid, McCarroll, I think, who I think went to Pitt. Rice had Andre Sweet who played for Duke before transferring to Seton Hall and Kyle Cuffe who started at St Johns. I think the kid who played basketball at Ctk, but went on to by an All-American CB at USC and plays in the NFL was in that backcourt as well – Will Poole I think his name was. Definitely all 10 starters were DI players and probably several from the benches as well. Omar Cook was the best passing PG I’ve ever seen in HS basketball.
Hoops you def know your stuff!!! I was at that game as well. It was an incredible match up and the place was packed. Yes that was Willie Poole. Short stocky stud who went on to the NFL. I also agree with your comment about Omar Cook. He was such a joy to watch. I went to many tournaments that year just to watch him play. All the hype was deserved.
Too bad the kid made a wrong decision and didn’t go to college. He needed more time to develop a solid jump shot off the dribble. Now he is a European journeyman. Barett had the least hype and has had the most success out of them all(well Satterfeild was drafted, but now is playing street ball)
I agree with you. Barrett stayed all four years at Seton Hall and is still kicking around the NBA, which is a particularly impressive accomplishment at 5’7”. Cook played one or two years at St Johns and went pro after being told he’d be a late lottery pick. He slipped to #32 and didn’t get the guaranteed money of the 1st round. Cook really needed to spend at least one maybe two more years in college. His defense, passing and ballhandling was excellent, but he was such a poor shooter its hard to stick in the NBA shooting like that. A lot of people forget about this, but Cook’s dream school was North Carolina and he was all set to commit there but for some reason didn’t want to sign early. Instead UNC took a kid, Adam Boone, a PG who would sign early and Cook didn’t have a scholarship there anymore and ended up at SJU. I love St Johns, but had Cook ended up at UNC I think his career would’ve been different. Boone never ended up being a big player at UNC, so I think both UNC and Cook would’ve benefitted from him playing in Chapel Hill.
Satterfield also left Cincinnati after two years. He was a big time scorer in college, but was only about 6’1” so he was short for an NBA two guard and not a great PG at that point. I think he also could’ve had a nice NBA career had he stayed at Cincy and worked on his PG skills. To come out of the NBA after one or two years, you really have to be a complete player. If you have one glaring deficiency you may not last a year in the NBA as a guard. Big men can stick around for awhile with faults in their game, guards get exposed very quickly.
By the way, Poole turned out to be a great football player, but I loved him on the basketball court too. He was tenacious.
Hoops fan, you also have to include Omari Lawrence, Lamont Jones, Doron Lamb, Devon McMillan, and Lebrent Walker in transfers from NYC this year. Think about how much better the city teams, especially the CHSAA would be if St Rays had Omari and Kev, if Loughlin had Doron, if Rice had MoMo, if Lincoln had Lebrent Walker and Devon Fatty McMillan, and if Molloy had Ashton Pankey and Devon Collier. We would be talking 5 nationally ranked teams, plus Boys and Girls and Mount Vernon. 7 possible nationally ranked teams from NYC.
Anyone got the time of the Peekskill vs Blessed Sacrament game tomorrow, I know the alumni game is being held before that game. Any info would be great, Thanks
HRs,
In 2000 I was in Rockland, and following my Son’s Wrestling matches, and Football games.
As for last year, there were many games I enjoyed. Floored? Maybe not floored by them, but here are the games I actually went to, and thought were very good.
1) Rice’s win over St Raymonds at Fordham. That was a home game for Rice, but because of the enormous interest, they moved it to Forham U. It rained like crazy that night.
2)Bishop Loughlin by 2 or 3 over Crist the King at Christ the King in late January.
3) Christ the King over Rice by 2 or 3 over, at Christ The King.
I saw others, but I remember those games as good ones. I did not get to the Rice, Holy Cross Championship game, but I heard it was closer to the floored game, you are asking about.
boss,
You are correct. It is amazing how many good players are not in NYC schools because of the out of state flight, which has occured. I hope this trend does not continue, but it is scarey to think of all the talent that has left recently. ESPN, has been factored in as a possible reason. HS Hoops, has gone on the airwaves big time, and players are being driven to the high profile schools, who they believe will give them the most exposure.
Academics have taken a back seat. I would love to be a fly on the wall, and hear what some of these Coaches are selling these players, to get them to leave good schools to play out of state.
I was at the Rice-St. Rays game at St. Rays and Kemba Walker simply put on a show at the end of the game and was unstoppable. It went into OT. That was a great game. The games at the super 6 were all good as well last year.
Heres a write up of the tournament Mount Vernon was at in Oregon.
http://sports.espn.go.com/ncaa/recruiting/basketball/mens/news/story?id=3805992
The part about Sherrod…
Sherrod Wright (6-3, 195)
Senior, Mt. Vernon, NY
Wright is one of the better unsigned wing-types in the country. He has an ideal frame for a shooting guard and he possesses a well-built frame with long arms. He plays the game with relentless passion at both ends. He is at his best when attacking the rim and elevating over the opposition. Wright has some definite pop in his legs and he’s able to power his way to the rim, despite being undersized. His jump shot has range out to the stripe, but he is very streaky and he has quite a hitch in his release. He is a high-major prospect, but the level of his success at the next level will depend on the improvement of his jump shot.
Boss,
Both Rice and St Raymonds lost at the Super 6 the next day after playing that grueling overtime game. I wonder if such an emotional, and physically draining game took too much out of Rice and St Ray’s. Wasn’t that Rice, St Ray’s game at night? If so, it was too quick a turn around to play those tough Jersey teams less that 24 later.
Guys
To me the CHSAA AA was at an all time high When Rice played St. Rays 4 times when Rice had Felipe Lopez and St. Rays had Kareen Reid- All 4 games were crazy- I remember walking into Fordham from Fordham Road and people were actually scalping tickets- Kareen Reid was the best guard and had a flare for the dramatics- Felipe Lopez was probably one of the top 5 hyped HS players in the city of all time.
Hoops fan
I wanted to play devils advocate with you regarding comparing Iona to the CHSAA AA- You are using the Peekskill loss as the basis for your reasoning as to why Iona would not compete this year- Iona lost in OT to Peekskill in ahard fought game- Iona had a few disadvantages that resulted in the negative outcome- First the team had not played a tough game all year which resulted in their players not being tested to play a full 4 quarters which I believe hurt Voelkell with the leg cramps- Also you have to admit that Pope was not a 100% in the game and it was proven by hime not suiting up in the last game- With all this Iona still was in a OT game against a VERY GOOD PEEKSKILL team WHO WON FAIR AND SQUARE-
Your argument then would say that Loughlin who lost to St. Dominics could not compete in Section 1 or that Ford who lost to jamesville Dewitt could not compete as well in the CHSAA AA – Does MV losing to a great Dominguez team mean that they are not a top 25 team in the USA Today- My argument is that even with these losses MV is a top 25 team-Ford could beat a St. Rays and Iona on a good night can play with the CHSAA AA teams.
Guys I am smart enough to realize that Iona would not be the favorite to win the CHSAA AA City Championship but I also think you can’t use one game to determine whether they can play at a higher level in the CHSAA AA.
i also believe hoops fan is pusillanimous to say the least. didn’t even go to the game to see peekskill beat iona in OT and matter of factly declares that iona could no longer compete vs taller teams. by not being in the county center and only working with reports you could conclude pope was shut down? when in fact his injury shut him down from what we all could see. i fault coach Q for letting him continue to play when he was reinjured in the 1st quarter and was obviously slow and ineffective thereafter. the fact that mack was the iona player of the game tells you that iona played poorly. mack is the 6th man, and should remain the 6th man this season.
peekskill was much taller than i expected. if you were not there you would not be able to appreciate that fact. thomas was the unsung hero who won the game together with brickhouse.
Wouldn’t it be as easy to say that now peekskill could play with mv for sure than iona would be a prohibitive underdog to mv…real disrespect for peekskill or too much reliance on a single games outcome to be making bold 180 degree reversal statements like that.
Iona Power,
A couple of days prior to the Iona, Peekskill game, Mike Quick of MSG High School Weekly, said he believed that Iona was the best CHSAA team, A or AA. He also said Iona would go undefeated. I did not post it, because Iona fans, might have turned over cars, and started started barn fires all over New Rochelle (joke). Did he mean Rice too, because they were not at full strenth? Some other sports writers came out and said they thought Mike Quick was getting ahead of himself. Blowouts against lesser teams are very misleading as to how a team will play against better competition.
The Iona, Peekskill game exposed some things that showed what Iona would have trouble with, playing some of the top teams. Peekskill is good, but they aren’t Rice, or even some of the other top CHSAA AA teams. Size matters. Peekskill was able to put bigger players on the court than Iona had played before. The defense that Iona saw in Peekskill, was on a whole different level than Iona had seen by prior teams. Also Peekskill made Iona spend allot of energy playing defense. The top CHSAA AA schools bring it every night, they are big, and they are tough. The common opponent thing is misleading, because I really think Loughlin’s size would be a problem for Iona.
That said, I think Iona would be competitive against the top AA teams, especially at home. On the Road, or on a neutral court they would have some problems, but they would still play well.
Iona Power,
I agree with you about the year Rice and St. Rays played for the City Championship at Fordham University. That was the most exciting basketball game I ever watched, and the rivalry amongst both teams with two players that had so much hype surrounding them just increased the intensity both on and off the court.
Did you see the game when Rice beat St. Raymonds in St. Raymonds gym without Felipe on the floor? Gary Saunders came off the bench and took over the game. There were D1 coaches that couldn’t get in the gym because the place was packed in.
Hoops Fan without question has been a great fan of the CHSAA, and has backed Iona as if he was their greatest fan. He just got thrown out with the trash because he had an opinion, that one Iona fan did not agree with.
Jayden
Mike Quick is very high on Iona right now because of the monster season from the football team- I think that had something to do with his assessment- He had Iona Football ranked #3 in his Tri-State MSG Poll- Most objective Iona fans would have to say that Iona is not the best team in the entire CHSAA. That is one crazy statement and I am shocked that he would have said that so early in the year. Right now Iona needs to prove that they are even the best team in the CHSAA A because Ford is the defending Champ and is having an impressive year-
I also agree that Hoops fan is one of the most objective people on this blog and is very fair toward Iona which says something about his character as he is a huge Stepinac Fan-When he has a differing point the dialogue he offers is in a class fashion. As most know Iona-Stepinac are fierce rivals.
I think Iona basketball fans should be very happy right now that you can even discuss them being competitive with teams like St.Rays etc because 3 years ago they would get beat in convincing fashion-
bball fan
I have had the good fortune of watching several games from the ST. Raymonds gym and it is without a doubt one of the nicest facilities in the Metropolitan area- It is a huge selling point for potential players.
I was looking for the actual quote from Mike Quick, which I can’t seen to locate right now. However, I found a ranking review in NYHoops.com that ran on their Dec 24 CHSAA rankings. it also mentions what Mike Quick said. Here it is.
Iona Prep – 7-0.
(1)
The team continues to dominate, defeating St. Dominic’s 72-45, and Newburgh Free 95-80. Mike Quick of HS Weekly was even quoted as saying this is the best team in the entire CHSAA. Now, I won’t go that far, but this team can definitely compete in the “AA” and has a small possibility of going undefeated for the season. I don’t think that will happen either, but don’t be surprised.
Iona Power,
Good level headed comment.
Jayden-
I did not expect Iona to go undefeated this year- That is unrealistic- They will probably loss about 2 more games before the playoffs- I think they could split with Mount and lose one other game to a team like Hayes, Lasalle and of course Ford-
As long at they win the CHSAA A City Title and Federation then I can deal with a few losses in the regular season- I am wishing for a rematch with Peekskill in the Federation-
Also that win over New Rochelle is looking much better as they have bounced back very well-
Iona and IonaPower,
I admittedly was not at the Peekskill/Iona game (though I wish i was there because it sounded like a great game). So much of my opinions from the game came from the many people I talked to who were at the game, the comments I read on this blog from Iona and Peekskill fans alike, as well as Kevin’s extremely detailed review. I don’t think I said anything about Pope being shut down, which was apparently attributed to me earlier. What I did say is that it seemed apparent that Iona had a bit of trouble getting into their game against a very big, strong, athletic and aggressive Peekskill team. Do either of you guys disagree with that? Obviously, Iona still played well and had a chance to win. Nowhere did I say that I thought Iona was overrated or anything like that. What I did say is that the attributes that Peekskill has most (strenth, atheleticism, height, aggressiveness) are found in multiples in the CHSAA AA league. Had Iona shot close to 50% from 3 against Peekskill they would’ve won…and frankly if Iona shot 50% from 3 vs. anyone they have a very good chance to win. However, certain types of defenses, presses and tempos are going to affect how a team shoots and orchestrates their offense. If Iona is allowed to get into their offense and set the tempo they are going to be almost unbeatable.
I do agree that the Peekskill loss was only one loss and if there was a rematch, Iona would probably have a very good chance to win. Its also true that if Pope was 100% healthy for the whole game the outcome could’ve possibly been different, but thats a big “what if”. I still think Iona could probably beat 4 of the CHSAA AA 9 teams and could certainly compete with Molloy and St Rays. I just wouldn’t predict Iona to beat Loughlin or Ctk and definitely not Rice. Could anything happen on a one game basis – of course! Milan HS in Milan, Indiana proved that for all of us in 1952 (or maybe 1955), right?
Iona,
I’m pretty sure you never read me ever “matter of factly declaring” anything. All I did was offer my humble opinion and if you noticed, prefaced almost every preference with “I think” or “in my opinion”. I still am very impressed with Iona’s basketball team and I still think they have a very good chance to win the A title (I think Chaz Williams’ supporting cast isn’t nearly as good this year as last).
IonaPower,
I was at two of the four St Rays/Rice games in ‘93-’94. I think Felipe Lopez is without a doubt one of the 3 most hyped CHSAA players ever (Lew Alcindor and Kenny A being the other two) and I think more so than Stephon Marbury, Telfair or Stephenson of recent PSAL memory. Felipe was the #1 player in his class in EVERY recruiting service in America and took home almost every POY award and McDonald’s MVP. Telfair and Stephenson are/were great HS players, won championships, but were only consensus top 10 national players – I’d give Felipe the edge by virtue of being a unanimous #1. The Rice/St Ray’s game at Iona College was preceded by a Stepinac/Fordham Prep game – great doubleheader. That Stepinac team was 24-1 until getting upset in the playoffs to that same Fordham Prep team lead by Sean Gregory who was a great shooter and played at Princeton for Pete Carril. That Stepinac team hadn’t lost a league game in two years, had won the A championship the year before and beat the #1 team in Massachusetts at a tournament if I remember correctly. Their only loss was to the #1 team in RI, Bishop Hendricken, I think. It seems that some Iona fans get a little excited about talk of moving up to the AA. Keep in mind, Stepinac and Mount had dominating teams in the 90’s that were more dominant than Iona’s current success and crossed several classes, not just one great class. I don’t remember much talk about Stepinac or Mount moving up then.
Truth be told, I was a little disappointed personally for Iona having lost to Peekskill. I pictured Iona having a great year this year to be able to make an argument as a reasonable competitor to MV’s title of Westchester’s best team for the first time in awhile. Losing to Peekskill is nothing to be ashamed of, ever, but it did diminish a little in my eyes Iona having a magical year this year. However, winning the A title and getting into the Federations I think would make up for it, particularly if a rematch could be in the cards.
Iona’s notch may go down a little bit more if Peekskill manages to lose to Poughkeepsie… It’s unlikely but somewhat possible…
Hoops fan,
You said nothing wrong, and your analysis was dead on. Iona Power asked a very good question. Remember, you backed the Iona, Mt Vernon common opponent debate, therefore it is fair to ask why you feel Iona could not beat Loughling, when Iona beat St Dom’s, and Loughlin did not. Iona Power caught an inconsistancy. I find it inconsistant also. However, you are allowed to change your views, because we all do. You are also allowed to comment on a game you did not attend, based on getting enough input. We have to give Kevin, and the bloggers credit for their great after game analysis. Iona read you before. He has been on this blog for years.
Hoops Fan, you seem to now agree with me, by saying the styles of teams, are more important than common opponents. As Statesman laid it out, Peekskill may take some losses along the way. Are those teams better than Iona? That would be ridiculous.
This is a basketball forum, and we all have oppinions. Some people take those oppinions too seriously, and want to call names. It’s only hs basketball, not a terminal illness. I see parents acting like fools when their kids are involved in sports. Don’t think kids are not reading these blogs, and reading grownups acting like big babies, at best, and total fools most of the time. Life must really be hard, if an oppinion on a basketball game makes someone go off the deep end.
Hoops Fan
Your points are as always well taken- The only problem that I have is that you believe that Iona losing to Peekskill would tarnish their season- If Iona lets say wins the CHSAA AA and then lets say beats Jamesville Dewitt then I do not think the loss to Peekskill would tarnish the season- Their are very few teams that are good enough in the CHSAA A or AA or Section 1 AA to go undefeated-
I agree that Iona would be an underdog to CTK, Rice, Loughlin and St. Rays becuase of the history- But I also think for the first time in a long time that you have 3 teams in Iona, Ford and Mount that are in the top 6-7 of the entire league-Unless Iona, Mount and Stepinac change philospy and tactics related to administering their basketball then it is not possible to compete on a yearly basis with the likes of Rice, CTK and St. Rays- How do you compete with Rice when their head coach runs arguably the most powerful AAU program in the City-
I think Iona in Football has stated to take on a more aggressive approach to competing with the highest level teams on a yearly basis and the results started to show this year- (Stepinac has begun using the same tactics which helped them this year).
Jayden,
you are right on the mark when you say it is only HS BB, not a terminal illness.the next few weeks will bring some good CHSAA games.time to enjoy pro football and try to pick some winners.
Iona P… under no circumstance would the season be tarnished for losing to anyone let alone Peekskill if they win state and feds. And on the reverse if Peekskill fans turned around and said their season was satisfactory because they beat Iona but yet lost in the states…it would be mind boggling.
Personally I think way too much thought goes into who is better than who with fictitious match ups. Yes it is great for the blog, but it also is not realistic whatsoever. And the common opponent theory is BS in my eyes. Especially in HS basketball. It is not used for overall national rankings or even state rankings so why attempt to use it here?
I am not going to get into where Iona stands against the top teams in CHSAA AA and MV. Most on the board know where I stand. It hasn’t changed even and after seeing Iona. I think Iona is an excellent team, but unfortunately a lot of hype and expectations are being put on the kids from fans and even people like Mike Quick! They need to keep doing their talking on the court, so they shut every doubter up(including me).
IP.. I like your explanation about the CYO and the the stance the lower tier teams would need to take to get to the elite level. I agree 100%. And nowadays is it really worth it, when the best CHSAA AA teams are even struggling to keep the best in NY?
IonaPower,
I think I didn’t properly explain my “tarnish” point. What I meant to say is that to me PERSONALLY it lessens the greatness of their season. I’m not saying thats how everyone should feel at all. One loss shouldn’t spoil a season. Had Iona lost to Mount, Stepinac or Ford during the season I wouldn’t feel the same because those are rivalry games and anything tends to happen there, plus they would have a direct chance to have a rematch. I just happen to put a big emphasis on a cross-league game like Iona/Peekskill for each team to prove themselves. When Stepinac beat the state champion Peekskill team a couple years ago at the Slam Dunk it definitely was a highlight to their season. Had Stepinac lost that game, i think it would’ve put a damper on their season. I hope that ezplains it better. Certainly, if Iona wins the A title it will be a tremendous accomplishment and if they were to win the Federations that would more than make up for a loss to Peekskill, certainly if they beat Jamesville-Dewitt or Peekskill along the way.
Jayden,
Thanks for your comments. I hear both you and IonaPower ascribing to me a belief in the common opponent theory. I thought I’ve addressed that. THE COMMON OPPONENT THEORY IS IN NO WAY AN ABSOLUTE AT ALL. What I did say is that if two teams have 5 or 6 common opponents that can give an observer a flavor of if both teams are on the same level – thats all. In other words, if MV and Iona have 6 common opponents. Let’s say MV wins all 6 by 30 points each time. For the sake of argument, lets say Iona also wins all 6 by 30 or more each time. That would give me a strong indication that Iona and MV are on the same level. If Iona goes 3-3 in those 6 games with a couple bad losses, I’m not sure I’d say they’re on the same level as MV. This example is meant to be purely theoretical – I’m not trying to open up another Iona/MV debate. If Loughlin loses to St Doms and Iona beats St Doms I don’t in anyway believe that makes Iona better than Loughlin – that is what the common opponent theory really is (nonsense). I think looking at common opponents to get an idea if two teams are on the same level is common sense.
Clearly styles and matchups are the biggest determining factor when two teams play each other. Thats why I made a couple comments about Iona/Peekskill. Peekskill plays a similar style of basketball as you could find in the AA some seasons – not necessarily as good as the AA teams, but the same style. Therefore, I felt if Iona has trouble playing as well as they have been facing Peekskill’s style, they could likely have trouble with teams in the same style only faster, bigger, stronger and more aggressive.
Jayden
I 100% have no doubt that Rice and especially St. Rays were both tired from the night before at the Super 6. The only one who seemed to be 100% that game was Durand Scott and he was in foul trouble and fouled out of the game the night before and barely played.
Moe doesnt just run one of the biggest AAU programs in the city, but one of if not the top in the nation.
Also, Mike Quick saying Iona is the best team in the CHSAA means out of Rice, CTK, Loughlin ect. or just the teams in Ionas division? Because if he means out of them all, MSG needs to cancel his show ASAP!!!
I think style of play is more important than common opponents. Maybe I should watch Iona play more, but from what I saw against Peek. they are not going to get the open looks they were getting in that game. Pope needs to check the wind before he shoots and the bench looks weak, MV will play man to man pressure, and that might be a little too much. The MV bench is much deeper, and the starters have an edge. Both Odayne and Vaughn have come back from Oregon much more confident and this might not be good for NYS. My opionion is two teams beating the same opponent by 30 points means nothing, too many factors to consider like when the starters come out and what the other coach does when that happens. The MV program should not accomodate High Schools that every 5 years or so have a few exceptional talents to prove a point. Play for 10 years straight and then decide.
boss.. he meant the entire CHSAA!
LMAOOOOOOOOOOOO
honestly that is one of the most absurd statements i have ever heard. Mike Quick should not be allowed to be on TV anymore and shouldn’t be listened to by anyone in this area. No disrespect to Iona but lets be real.
Being a lot of the big names are not in the the CHSAA AA people feel it is down. Many respected people feel there are A teams that would fair well in the AA division. Personally I disagree, but I tend to think quick was hoping on the bandwagon instead of thinking on his own. Yes they are young, but the talent is still exceptional.
Have you seen St. Rays play yet? How is the young big man? Antigua has come out and said that this kid will be the best big man ever to come out of St. Rays…
The CHSAA is down and they would do alright in the league this year, but be the best team, no way. I havent seen Rays play yet this year either…
boss,
HRS is right, Mike Quick meant the entire CHSAA. Trust me, he was taken to task by other writers, and it has hurt his credibility. By the way, the St Ray’s vs. Rice overtime game was a classic. I remember wondering why they would schedule such a grueling match up, less than 24 hrs before they played nationally ranked teams in The Garden.
Hoops Fan,
You are my “boy” but, the common opponent issue was about Mt Vernon, and Iona, and the schedule that was in front of them. It was not about a 6 team comparison. Everyone buying into that common opponent theory, wanted to see how Mt Vernon played against New Rochelle, and St Dom’s. I said it was a crazy argument then, and I say it is crazy now. Just think, since Peekskill beat Iona, that common opponent nonsense could backfire against Iona. Any team that beats Peekskill would be better than Iona. Common opponent comparisons are a ridiculous barometer on who is a better team, when those teams do not actually suit up and play each other.
Spacecadet54, and HRS,
Mt Vernon scrimmaged Cordoza today at 12. Cordoza’s Coach Ron Naclerio is the most animated Coach I have ever seen. He was coaching on the court, behind the basket, screaming, and down right entertaining as hell. I also saw the craziest play I have ever seen. A Cordoza player dunked the ball. It went through the rim, but before it went all the way through the net, it hit the player’s head, and the ball went backwards through the rim. It never went fully through the net, so it did not count. Maybe other people saw that, but I have to admit, I never did.
Hoops Fan,
Mt Vernon’s JV played Stepinac after the Cordoza scrimmage. Stepinac has some nice young talent.
Statesman,
Can you tell me how Poughkeepsie is playing. They are always in the thick of things, and someone will always meet them deep in the sections playoffs, but no one ever knows much about them.
Jayden,
Poughkeepsie is still trying to find it’s identity… They are a very young team with only 2 Seniors on the roster but they are still finding ways to get it done… They are very athletic… Teams are starting to zone them to force them to shoot, the last few games they have starting knocking down jumpers more consistently… Brandon James is a quality big man who crashes the boards and go all out… Deyvon Whittaker a junior guard is arguebly the best in Dutchess County with Duane Clarke probably not suiting up this season… PK starting Point is a Sophomore who can get the ball to the rim and knock down outside shots, you need to look out for him the next few years… PK’s 6th man is also a talented Sophomore, he is still raw and is getting more comfortable… He scores in bunches he probably averages 12-14 for the season… Not bad for someone coming off the bench as a Soph… PK doesnt play Peekskill until the 21st so they have time to get better they have about 5 or 6 games between that date with a big matchup vs. NFA on the 10th… I think PK will come out hard to avenge last years loss… PK will go as far as Whitaker will take them, he needs to be more assertive and take over games like he can… He is a 20 PPG player and needs to not let himself become lost in games and only scroing 10-15… PK is nowhere MV’s level, but then again who in Section 1 is???
Statesman,
Poughkeepsie is always good. They must have good youth programs, because year after year, they are always in the mix. You have become our PK “scout”, and a good one at that. Your info, on what is going on up there, is greatly appreciated. Thanks.
Jayden,
Thanks, the PK youth programs aren’t bad at all… In communities like PK, Yonkers, MV, etc Basketball is always a safe haven from the streets… Basketball doesn’t save everyone from street life, but any life Basketball can change for the better is good by me… Section 1 is very deep and by the time the post-season rolls along anything can happen
In other news, NFA is down 37-36 to Maginn at the half… Sounds like MV will steamroll Maginn, taking they make it out Sectionals… Niagra Falls smacked Magginn by around 20 last week so that might be MV’s new competition in the state…
NFA beats Maginn by 15. Good win for Newburgh. Mcleod & Henderson took over in the 4th qtr. Maginn has decent size but didnt seem to hustle.
Wow NFA beats Maginn by 15!!!
Statesman and jmoose.
Is Buie hurt? Has Newburgh improved that much so soon, or has Maginn taken a step back? Good win for NFA, but good grief. Also, that’s some real revenge by Niagra Falls, cause it wasn’t pretty up in Glens Falls last year. That was a serious beat down Maginn put on Niagra Falls.
Buie didnt seem hurt, a couple of times he hit a shot & I thought he was going to go off but it never happend. NFA frustrated him, running people at him. Maginn didnt seem to have a legit 2nd threat. Mike Mcleod & Cousar each had 17 for NFA, There point guard really played well too. Didnt turn the ball over, really played well defensivly as well.
let me see if i understand this. it is acceptable to conclude that teams with similar skill sets will fare similarly against a common opponent, but it is not legitimate to consider the outcomes of games actually played by teams aginst common opponents?
because peekskill is “athletic, strong, tall, aggressive, etc) and they beat iona in OT, it is fair to presume that because these skills are found in “multiples” in the chsaa aa, that iona would also lose to these chsaa aa schools that posess these skills.
but if iona plays new ro, white plains, st dominics, all hallows and mv plays all hallows, st dominics, new ro 2 times and white plains 2 times in the same season, we should not look to the outcome of all these games to project a possible winner if a game ,head to head, was played?
i think the stronger case can be made for the outcome of “theoretical games” by using “actual” results of games played than by projecting “common skill sets” from one team to another.
Iona,
The point is you can do whatever you want to do – thats how personal opinions are derived. After all, everything we’re talking about is in regards to personal opinions. If you want to tell people how they should think, you’re in the wrong forum. If you want to take the common opponents that Iona and MV have and decide who is better using just that informnation, thats your choice. I don’t think that way and I think most knowledgable basketball fans dont think that is absolute either – but it seems what knowledgable basketball fans think doesn’t weigh much in your thought process anyway if that doesn’t land in favor of Iona.
Jayden:
Ron Neclario is hysterical. He has been in the NYC public school scene forever. When my pop used to coach, he always used to look forward to seeing him. He is not the greatest X’s and O’s guy, but he does right by the kids.
This common opponent thing has gotten out of hand…because now let me guess.. Iona thinks that since NFA beat Magnin who beat MV LAST YEAR can now beat Iona.. enough said.. this is all so silly. Let the kids play and let’s hope that Iona and MV win state and fed championships..because in the end it doesn’t matter who would win.
Ron Nacelario is a legend with the underground street ball community- I believe he was the one behind Rafer Alston playing in those Street Ball telecasts- I have also heard a few negative comments from some people in Brooklyn- and Queens about him trying to steal players from the CHSAA- I heard he is not well liked by Holy Cross and Molloy-
Also the Iona Prep wins over Newburgh and New Rochelle look very good with the way Newburgh and New Rochelle have been playing-
Iona – Mount this Friday night at Iona should be very intense-
Also some huge CHSAA AA games with St. Rays at CTK on Sunday and CTK at Rice (Guacho Gym next Saturday
Jayden,
By the way, thanks for the report on the Stepinac JV. Who won the JV game, Stepinac or MV?
Naclerio is a nice guy, but he’s notorious for bringing in players from not just all over the city and CHSAA schools, but also internationally. I can remember him trying to suit up players from both Canada and Australia recently. Definitely a character.
What always used to get me with Ron was the awful hair and during the games it was a miss. Kind of like Big Ern in Kingpin!
Hoops Fan,
Mt Vernon was up by 11 at the half. I did not stay for the second half. However, Stepinac played very well, and I would not be surprised it it was a close game at the end. I do not know any of the Stepinac players, but one kid looked like he is going to be very good. He was tall, and slammed dunked a few times. I did not know they had a jv game scheduled. If I did, I would have prepared myself to stay longer.
Thanks Jayden. Keep in mind, Stepinac has two sophomores up on the Varsity – Conroy Baltimore, the big guy who everyone is impressed with, and a point guard. Stepinac’s sophomore class is very tough.
Iona,
You are more interested in declaring Iona better than Mt Vernon, than you are in the overall sucess Iona has this year. You have already taken the fun from the casual fan who would like to watch Iona, which may be on a magical run. This is all you talk about. No match ups with future opponents, or anything that may otherwise be important. As far as you are concerned, the season should stop right now, and Iona should be declared better that Mt Vernon. Iona can lose the rest of their games, and that would sit well with you. I do not believe real fans think your way.
Hoops Fan,
As I see it, Stepinac will be right there for the next few years.
Peekskills game with blessed sacrament was cancelled when sacrament didn’t show. Hopefully nothiing bad happened to the team.
I doubt any public school coaches are liked by the CHSAA coaches too well…think of all the CHSAA transfers to the PSAL in the last few years…it aint just naclerio
Jayden,
Buie didn’t seem hurt to me either… NFA used their athletism to take him out of the game… Maginn seemed to just wait around for him to go off, like the Lakers did for Kobe before Odom and Gasol… NFA has improved, Maginn has taken a step back… They are glutons of the media and overconfidence, they don’t have that hunger and chip on the shoulder as they did last year… PK-NFA next saturday should be interesting… It should be fun to see how the Pioneers hold up…
statesman,
I agree in general with your comments about the NFA-Maginn game, but I do think that Buie wasn’t feeling well. I was sitting near the Maginn bench, and he looked tired and like he was having some breathing problems. NFA was impressive, though, and I’m looking forward to their game against PK on Saturday. It will be a good test for PK, which also has three other games scheduled for the week.
boss,
NYC is a very big school district. Almost all CHSAA players were once public school kids. CHSAA fans have always made the point that kids have the right to go to private schools if they desire, then it goes both ways.
I do not like transfers, but if the kid lives within the NYC school district boundaries, then I believe it is fair game. If those kids transfering to NYC public schools live in LI, then I would also be upset. I am sure that some public school coaches are not happy to see kids leave public schools after middle school, to got to the CHSAA. As long as schools are not breaking the rules, then What is the fuss. The biggest challege for the CHSAA is not NYC public schools, but out of state predetors who will do anything to win basketball games.
Statesman,
I am still in shock over Maginn. I assume that the game was at NFA. I have always stated that teams are different on their home court. I dare any down state team to go to Poughkeepsie, or Newburgh, and be over confident that they will win. It is a long drive home after losses.
NFA is way too deep for PK. PK will not be able to hang over the course of the whole game. Should be interesting. NFA is athletic and tough. PK seems to be getting by but limited in depth and talent. I like the way the coach is grooming guys and letting them play.
Jayden,
The game was at Mt st mary college which is a home game for NFA. Maginn surprised me though. They are big top to bottom, have some good looking athletes but didnt seem to play like a team. Statesman was right when he said that they passed the ball to buie & waited for him to do something. NFA def played better team ball, Mcleod is a great team player very unselfish. He gets to the paint with ease & sets people up for layups. Henderson played great as well, 1o points 10 assists. Maginn had no one to stop him off the dribble.
Hoops Fan
MV JV 75 Stepinac JV 58
Stepinac Freshman 49 MV Freshman 44
You are right about the Stepinac Sophomore Class being excellent- I think Coach Phillip should seriously think about bringing up 2 more sophomores and going very young for the rest of the year- They may provide a spark for Stepinac going into the playoffs.
Jayden
I could not agree with you more about what the goals of Iona should be for this year- Iona needs to find a way to win the CHSAA A championship- I do not understand why some people have a fascination with Iona – MV . The game is not happening and even if it did happen both teams have obvious goals long term with MV in Class AA and Iona in the CHSAA. This topic has become old, annoying, and beaten to death.
I also agree with you about the recruiting of players- I was at the Iona-Nazareth game yesterday and was talking with one of the Nazareth freshman coaches and you had to hear the stories about ALL the teams in Brooklyn-Queens fighting for players- It was crazy!!!!!!
Stepinac has a very good jv program, and love Tim Philps as a coach. They are very young this year but next year they will give a lot of teams a run for their money. The kid that was running and dunking and shooting the 3’s for their jv team on saturday is a born and raised Mt vernon kid. WOW the mount vernon talent is all over the county.
bballer,
PK isn’t deficient in talent, just maturity and experience. I agree that NFA looks stronger at this point, but PK is capable of pulling off a surprise. That’s what makes the matchup interesting.
Ionapower,
Thanks for the scores. I completely agree with you that the idea of the Iona/MV debate has been beaten to death. I do hope the game happens next year though – maybe then we can re-start that discussion.
I’ve also heard some of the stories of recruiting players in B/Q. The one regarding Lance Stephenson spending the first few days of his freshman year at Bishop Loughlin before disappearing to Lincoln one day without a word was particularly interesting.
The point that Jayden and I disagree on is one of principle and standards. THe CHSAA AA schools openly try to attract 8th graders to their programs. It actually usually happens through youth league coaches or summer league coaches who have a relationship with a coach at a particular school – in many cases the assistant coaches, not the head coach. PSAL HS’s do all the same reaching out to players that a CHSAA may do in 8th grade. However, once a kid enrolls at a school for 9th grade, CHSAA coaches are finished. It is incredibly rare for anyone to transfer from one CHSAA school to another and even more rare for a PSAL kid to transfer to the CHSAA because of the strict transfer rules. It is a level playing fielf in 8th grade because all 8th graders have to choose a HS different from the junior high that they attending (regardless of if they attend a parochial junior high or public). What upsets me and most basketball fans is when sophomores or juniors are poached from CHSAA schools by public schools (most notoriously Boys & Girls, Lincoln, Cardozo and Wings). I know a couple people involved in the situation at Xaverian, whose team lost several players last year. Part of the pitch to the kids involved by the public school teams usually is “come to our school, we play a wide open offense, you can get up and down the floor, show your skills better and you’ll get recruited by better schools.” Unfortunately, if you look at the recent history of players who transfer from CHSAA schools to public schools for “better college options”, the rate that those kids have to head to a 5th or 6th year of HS at a prep school because they either a) didn’t qualify or b) didn’t get the right offers is incredibly high. Here’s a list of some of the recent high profile transfers from CHSAA to PSAL schools and how they’ve fared qualifying and getting scholarships.
Brandon Romain – 3 years at Xaverian to B&G/Post University (DII) – was recruited by major and low major schools during his junior year at Xaverian, went to B&G and ended up going DII. Qualified at B&G, but apparently was already qualified while still at Xaverian.
Patrick Jackson – 3 years at Xaverian to B&G/Rutgers – commmitted to Rutgers while still at Xaverian.
Vincent Council – Xaverian to Lincoln – 5th year at Patterson school
Ryan Davis – Holy Cross to Bayside/Junior College
Reggie Davis – 3 years Xaverian to B&G/Junior College – actually transferred back to Xaverian mid-senior year because he fell off track to qualify at B&G.
BJ Warrington – 3 years at All Hallows to Wings/Dowling (DII) – DI recruit at All Hallows, ended up going DII. Partial Qualifier.
David Williamson – 3 years at All Hallows to Wings/Junior College – DI recruit at All Hallows.
Zamal Nixon – 3 years at Xaverian to B&G/Houston. Nixon may be the one success story of a player doing better at the PSAL school he transferred with his college prospects than he would’ve at the CHSAA school he left. Nixon was recruited by MAAC schools at Xaverian, but ended up at Houston after a big senior year at B&G.
David Imes – 3 years at Xaverian to Lincoln/Winchendon prep. Committed to Hofstra but didn’t qualify academically.
Jarrell Mills – Rice to MLK/Junior college.
Curtis Loving – Rice to Wadleigh/Prep school.
Trinity Fields – Holy Cross to Cardozo/Iona. Left eventual CHSAA champion Holy Cross for Cardozo. Ended up Iona and qualified. Blaise Ffrench ended up at UTEP from Holy Cross and Fields was definitely the better player, so Fields have been able to go higher than Iona, but nothing to complain about since he qualified.
Edy Toussaint – Holy Cross to Cardozo/Junior college.
Hoops great post…but a few questions
1) Why do you feel the kids who have left the CHSAA to go to public schools are leaving for better college options? This seems a little odd, because the NY CHSAA is more coveted. I tend to feel they leave because of the rigors of school work, fall out between coach, etc.
2) Do you really feel the list of players mentioned recruiting process was impacted by transferring, Many of these kids were middle of the road and not top level recruits. So no matter what they did, kind of feel the result would be the same.
If we look at the bigger time players who have made this move, the above list becomes a moot point. Lance like you mentioned left and we know what the result is going to be.
Go back in time… Lloyd Daniels went to 80 schools, doesn’t matter. The list goes on.
I feel big time talent isn’t impacted by the above.. so I question whether lower level talent is impacted as well.
Hoops fan-
All your points are valid- It seems like when a player chooses a CHSAA AA or A school coaches like Tiny Morton and Ron Nacelerio are going all out to still recruit the player-To me that is dirty and classless- If I am coaching I would try to get a student athlete before he attends any high school- If he enrolls at a different school I forget about him and move on- The ONLY way I take him as a transfer is if he reaches out to me as a coach and explains why he is changing his mind- I have heard that Ron Nacelerio is disliked because he tries to steal players from when they arrive as Freshman right through their Junior year- THE CHSAA needs to change their transfer rule requiring kids to sit out- They are at a MAJOR disadvantage- A kid can leave a CHSAA school and go to a public school and not sit out but what if a kid attends Wings or Lincoln and does not like it and wants to go to Mount or Holy Cross- he then has to sit out a year- That is why some kids are going to New Jersey Catholics like the All Hallows and Molloy players of last year.
Iona .. I agree with you about the transfer rule. When I said my father would look forward to seeing Neclario it was for the comedic factor. Didn’t want to bring anything up, but since it has been, I can expand on it. My father was not friendly with him and it was mainly because of his coaching “practices” His shadiness has been going on forever. He does do right by the kids when they get there, but the question has always remained…how DO they get there. People in NYC tend to just turn away and ignore it because he has been there forever. Morton has beat him at his own game. The guy is a crook. Word on the street is he will be gone within two years from Lincoln(now that Lance is graduating and the next big thing is not there)
HRS,
Good questions.
1) I feel that many of the kids who leave the CHSAA for PSAL schools are sold on the idea of playing in a more wide open offense and getting more chance to “shine” offensively. Many of the kids who I’ve heard talk about why they made the move say the same thing. PSAL offenses do tend to have less structure than CHSAA schools offenses. I completely agree with you that it doesn’t make a lot of sense because the CHSAA has a FAR better track record of getting kids better college options and getting them qualified so they don’t have to go to JUCOs or prep schools.
I didn’t leave that post to say anything negative about the basketball played in the PSAL – there are great teams and great players in the PSAL every year. I agree that the Lance Stephenson’s of the world will probably be ok regardless of where they go to school most likely. However, if you’re looking at a kid that is maybe a MAAC-level player. If he leaves a CHSAA school where he is getting a better education and has a far better chance at qualifying than if he transfers to a PSAL school, then ends up going to a JUCO or a basketball factory prep school it saddens me because the kid doesn’t benefit.
In the case of Zamal Nixon, he left Xaverian, had a great senior year at B&G and ended up qualifying at Houston. In that situation, the kid benefits. However, in many other situations the kid is convinced to leave because its “in their best interests” and it doesn’t turn out to be in their best interests.
2) I can’t say categorically that all of the above-mentioned players college prospects were impacted by transferring. However, if you look at the amount of those kids above who didn’t qualify, it is far, far above the average for the CHSAA. If many of those kids who didn’t qualify stayed at the CHSAA schools they spent the first few years at I think they would’ve had a much better chance of getting a scholarship at a MAAC level school or in some cases a solid DII school. I listed 13 players above, I could’ve found more like Marquis Grant (CTK to Cardozo/Junior College), Kaseem Carr (Mount to Thurgood Marshall/Junior College, etc.
HRS,
Lloyd Daniels is a completely other topic, but I wouldn’t use him as a example of a guy who turned out ok. He had as much talent as anyone, but what he lacked obviously was personal discipline. I think he would’ve been much better off had be been at a high school that instilled discipline in him. He may have been too gifted as a player to be willing to stand for discipline at any one school – he could always leave for another if he didn’t like the one. I can’t even remember which high schools he went to – Jane Adams was one, right? Can you remember which other schools he went to?
I like your explanation about the wide open feel to PS vs. CHSAA,..unfortunately a lot of that wide open play is due to bad coaching, so it isn’t done on purpose. No offense to Lovelace B&G but have you seen them play? It is a chaotic mess!
In the end what your saying revolves around education and liars! The CHSAA provides more possibilities of advancement(in terms of a future after HS), when leaving they are in jeopardy of going back to their old ways and are being used as athletic mules. Sad but has been happening forever. Whats even worse it is continues into college. These kids are taken advantage of and unless there is proper guidance, in the end the kid will be used and abused until he can’t play anymore…
Well I used him as an example of high profile talent where transferring wont impact his recruiting. Nor did he leave for a better college recruiting. So it is on topic.
I agree with everything you said about him. I am not sure about all the HS’s he attended, but I do know it was 5..yes 5! I am sure you saw him play..I did and he was ridiculous
IonaPower,
I highly disagree that the CHSAA should change its transfer rules. regardless of it puts the CHSAA at a competitive disadvantage, it keeps integrity in the whole process. Kids should never be allowed to switch schools in the CHSAA without sitting out a year. CHSAA schools also don’t need to start taking transfers from public schools without the kid sitting out a year. No one in the CHSAA wants kids changing schools all the time. The PSAL has transfer rules for someone transferring from one PSAL school to anothert, they’re just very loosely enforced.
I actually have no problem with a kid leaving a CHSAA school for whatever their own personal reasons are (i.e. don’t like the coach, want girls around, want less structure in their school life, etc). What upsets me is when teenage kids are convinced to transfer by adults who are selling them a phony bill of goods. If a kid is going to transfer from a CHSAA school to a PSAL school for basketball reasons, they should be aware that it will likely drastically decrease the chances of being academically qualified. And they should also realize the chances of them getting better offers isn’t that high either.
HRS,
Didn’t mean to say that Daniels was off topic, rather that he was a conversation all to himself! I did see him play several times – he was an incredibly talented player. one of the best I’ve seen in New York. Too bad he didn’t have it together. Ironically, he still had a decent NBA career despite all the problems.
Hoops fan
We agree to disagree- I think if a student at lets say Lincoln or Wings etc decides they need more structure overall and want to move to a CHSAA school I do not think they should be penalized for transfering- Look at how it worked out fro Brian Voelkill- He loks very happy at Iona and if he had played at Pleasantville he would have had to sit out his sophomore year and would have hurt his development on the court- I think the perfect example was the transfer Stepinac had from Hayes last year- I think it really hurt his development during his senior year-
I believe a very good Basketball player from Rye this year was looking for abetter basketball situation and went to Trinity Catholic in CT- I am sure he would have looked at the options at Stepinac or Iona but the transfer rule took that away- The CHSAA rule does not allow a player to change his mind about his school without being penalized.
Hoops Fan,
Kids leave Catholic schools all of the time, in every grade because parents cannot continue to afford the tuition. I have a friend who sent his kid to Cardinal Spellman, until the grade 11. He lost his job, and his kid is now going to Truman, a NYC public school for the 12th grade. No one objects to that, and there isn’t any protest of Public schools stealing catholic school students in that case. The sad part about the outcry, is that it only about sports.
I think you guys need to be real. That are schools really suppose to be about, a jump shot. Who cares if a basketball player wants to revisit the public school system. That is their right. Maybe the Catholic School can give that tuition to a academically qualified kid who would like to go to private school, but can’t afford to. It is sad that people only think about the health of their sports programs. No wonder we are in trouble in this country,
Imes went to Boys and GIrls not Lincoln
Curtis Loving was dismissed from Rice and didnt transfer.
Lamont Momo Jones left Rice for American Christian, which closed last year, and hes at Oak Hill now.
Dan Jennings left Loughlin last year for Oak Hill and is now at St. Thomas Moore
Doron Lamb left Loughin for Oak Hill this year
James Padgentt left Xaverian for Lincoln
And Lance Stephenson was going to go to Loughlin before his freshmen year, one thing leads to another, hes at Lincoln on the first day of his freshmen year.
If anyone remembers the Rice freshmen team when Kemba Walker, Chris Fouch, and Dorvell Carter was unreal. Kemba didnt even start as a freshmen, but all the seniors besides the 3 I just listed ended up somewhere else.
I just want to add this point, not every athlete leaves the CHSSA to go to public school, because of sports. If they were looking for an upgrade to The CHSAA, they would go out of state. Some kids just have a hard time adjusting to life in Catholic schools. Remember, allot of these kids are from tough innercity neighborhoods, and it is really a cultural challenge for these kids to adjust. There can also be religious reasons, and every kid in American has had bad expierences with a teachers. It also can be as simple as, some of the kids want to be around their friends and piers. Every kid wants that.
To suggest that every CHSAA to Public School transfer is 100% basketball related, is being short sided at best.
BBaller,
It’s not that PK isn’t deep… We just know that Laffin doesn’t really like using his bench… This is the first year I’ve seen him use his bench on a more consstent basis… The bench players come in hustle, get rebounds and dive for loose balls… That’s all you can ask for when the starters need a breathers… I’ve seen some of the practices… Laffin conditions the PK players so well that he doesn’t normally need to use the bench… That’s where injuries hurt the PK system last year… PK was hurt last year vs MV when they lost Tay Webb and Mo Dickens… Running up and down with MV will tire anyone out and PK was shorthanded to begin with… PK still would have lost but maybe it would have been by 10-15 and not 20+ who knows…
Talent? Whitaker, James, McLaurin, Gause… Name one other kid that has basketball talent? The coaches are getting the most out of some guys that can’t play. Without out Clark they are average and he won’t be back. Good luck to them. I believe they are a team that plays hard and have shown great disapline. However, they are not as good as they have been. I hope they go far but come on only two seniors and guys that are inexperienced. NFA losing to Pok? No way!
boss,
Stephenson enrolled and went to Loughlin for a few days to start his freshman year. Then he didn’t show up for school one day and was at Lincoln the next. He didn’t change his mind before the school year started.
Jayden,
I completely agree that some of the kids leave CHSAA schools for reasons other than basketball, of course. I actually said that explicitly in my post, so i’m not sure who you’re directing the comment to about suggesting that all transfers are 100% basketball related. I’m only referring to many that have said themselves that the reason they left was for basketball. All the kids who left Xaverian said openly they left for the reasons I mentioned above.
Also, I’m not sure you know that much about about any of these catholic schools to say that they only care about kids with jump shots. I can’t say I’m an expert on Bronx public high schools, so I tend not to make negative comments about them. I also clearly said that if it benefits the kids, I’m all for them going wherever is best. There should be three factors for hs kids; personal development, academic advancement and then lastly, basketball. What frustrates me is when teenage kids are convinced by adults to transfer schools for basketball reasons, when after all, the advice they are getting is wrong and doesn’t benefit them.
A school like Rice has about 400 kids, about 40 at most play basketball and maybe half of those 40 kids will actually play on the varsity at some point. So 20-25 of 400 kids will be varsity basketball players. Of the 400 kids there I think many or possibly most receive some sort of tuition assistance either from the school, an outside community group or from various scholarship programs. So please don’t try to say only the athletes receive help with tuition in large numbers.
I feel for your friend who had to remove his son from Spellman because he lost his job. You’ve mentioned him before It sounds like he falls in that category of society that ends up in the worst position when it comes to financial aid for college as well – the lower middle class. I’ve read a lot about the education system in our country. The wealthiest can afford college or private high schools. The poorest can often have options for financial aid and scholarships. its the people in the middle who often struggle to afford colelge or a private high school. This is a fact of society, so lets just not blame a local catholic high school, its a systemic problem.
Two other quick points you mentioned about why kids may leave catholic schools for public. 1) you mentioned religious reasons – probably more than half of catholic school students in the NYC are not catholic – it has been that way for years and years. The schools interest is in educating young men and preparing them for the world, not foremost their religious affiliation. Most catholic schools require a kid to attend one class of religion each day, like any other subject, but its not hard dogma. Its simple religion instruction, not unlike most would find at any church sunday school, regardless of denomination.
2) you also mentioned cultural adjustments for kids. There is a difference in a dress code and the behavior that is expected of kids – that is true. If you notice, many charter public schools now have adopted some sort of dress code. Good behavior should in expected in any school – its unfortunate that its not. As far as other cultural issues, most of the CHSAA schools in NYC are indicative of the neighborhoods they are in. its not as if the kids are any different at catholic schools than at public in any demographic – its just the schools that differ.
I do appreciate your feelings on this subject. I hope the information I share with you is informative.
boss,
You’re right about all those other players – I just tried to use players who had finished 4 years of high school so we could draw a comparison with their college prospects. Also, i tried to leave out players who went from a CHSAA school to a prep school instead of a PSAL school.
I never saw that Rice freshman team play, but I heard great things about them. Were there any other big players on that team besides Kemba, Fouch, Dorvelle Carter, Loving, Kafele Carty and Mills?
Laffin has too because they are not as talented. He is definitely getting the most out of what he has but then again I think he is a good coach. This is the most disaplined team I have seen them have. I sat behind their bench vs Arlington and he had those kids focused. But it will be a team that will struggle with their youth at times. NFA will handle them easily.
Interesting… NFA has 4 players, including McCleoud that can ball out too?
Anything cna happen my friend… PK had more talent than NFA last year and still found a way to lose the game… What the team lacks in talent they make up for in heart, but at the same time they have more talent than most teams that run on heart have, so that is a very dangerous mix there… The game will be fun, if NFA runs them out of the gym, I’ll be here telling you that you were right… I just won’t believe it until I see it…
Actually, bballer, I think the best way PK would be “greater than the sum of tis parts.” Case in point: In last year Section 1 playoffs, PK faced a White Plains team with D1 prospects Sean Kilpatrick and Rashad James and blew it out by 20. It’s great to have individual talent, but it takes five players on the floor to win. Also, let’s not forget that NFA lost to Minisink Valley in the Section 9 Class AA championship last year. I know it’s a different team this year, but it does show that anything can happen when the players take the court…
Jeff P,
... This version of the Pioneers seem to play well together, because most of them finally played all year together, AAU, etc… The Pioneers of the past who had more individual talent mostly went their separate ways on the off-season circuit… The game should be fun though… Win or lose I’m happy to see the PK-NFA rivalry renewed…
Blew it out by closer to 30… Closer to 28…
Hoops Fan,
When I say that kids leave private schools for cultural reasons, I do not only mean a dress code. Kids want to be around their friends, who they have bonded with, and who have the same interest they have.
When I mentioned a “jump shot”, I was not necessarily talking about private schools. Many kids cannot afford to go to private school. You correctly stated, that this economic crises, is sending allot kids from private schools to public schools. The middle class kids without a great jump shot are the kids being hurt.
My comment was to bring to light, that more people are upset about an athlete transfering back to a public school, than the many kids who want to stay, but are forced back because of economic reasons. We cannot lose sight that academics are the real reason for schools, not a dribble, and a pass.
anyone want to discuss a topic that interests me. who would would win if mv played iona ?......just kidding. but i promise to revisit it again before season end. i also will let you know whem i think mv proves or disproves to be the better team in my opinion…..does peekskill have anyone left on their schedule that can beat them ? if beating Gorton is their let down, exhausted , unmotivated game of the year, who can possibly step up and knock them off before the state run ?
I agree with you of course that academics are the real reason for schools, not basketball. I think in this situation, schools came up when we were discussing ways that help a teenager into a better situation in life. I don’t think you’ll have any arguments if kids are transferring places when the environments are better and their opportunities improve. I brought up the cases of kids transferring for basketball reasons, when in actuality they are better off basketball-wise where they were to begin with.
Your 1st paragraph seems to say that kids at catholic schools aren’t there with friends. Thats of course not true. Any kid who goes to high school in NYC is likely going to meet new friends. Catholic schools in NYC are not like going to MA or CT to a prep school where the environment is foreign and they’re not going to know anyone.
Your last paragraph says that people are upset when a catholic school kid transfers for basketball reasons, but not when a catholic school kid has to transfer to a public school for financial reasons. Those are two different discussions entirely. They really have nothing to do with one another. Clearly, most decent, empathetic people would feel for the kid who has to leave for financial reasons – that has nothing to do with basketball. As I’ve said many times, what upsets me about the Xaverian/B&G situation is that the teenagers are convinced to transfer by adults telling them a story (a story that doesn’t turn out to be true about improving their college prospects). So in the end, the kid loses. If it is a situation that benefits the kid in the long run, I will never have a problem with it. And I think most reasonable people wouldn’t have a problem with a kid going to a BETTER situation, but a lot of people will have a problem with a kid going to a worse situation based on bad advice.
Hoops Fan,
Lets agree to disagree on some segments of this discussion. I think we acually agree more than it may appear. You know, you and I can write a book on this topic. A book with no ending (joke). We both want what is best for the kids, which is all that matters.
Iona,
We know that the MV, Iona debate is what interest you. However, it is no longer a debate, because a debate takes more than one person. There is so much more in the basketball world than that issue, or any other angle that will get you back to that issue. Do you have any hs sports background, or are part of any past sports history you would like to share with us? Any games that stand out from your past?
Jayden,
I agree with you that we may actually agree more than it may seem.
Rice had Jordan Henriquez, which I would have bet he would have progressed more if he had stayed at Rice because Moe would have made him hit the weight room, Andre Calloway I think was at Rice, not sure though, and I know Ze was a PG at Rice during their freshmen year and got kicked out for some reason.
CTK beat St. Rays today 62-47. Sean Johnson had 32.
Agreed, statesman… PK will have a busy week (four games in six days), so it remains to be seen how much energy the Pioneers will have vs. NFA this Saturday. Luckily, the first three games are ones PK should win…
boss,
After I wrote my last post I remembered Henriquez and Calloway. But who is Ze?
Ze Price. He was a short PG that played on the Gauchos prior to his freshmen year then played for Bingo in 8th grade. he was good.