This and that
-
- May
- 28
I got a phone call today from a friend informing me of a “big scoop” he’d just heard. The always-reliable source said that he heard from his always-reliable source that Sean Kilpatrick of White Plains had committed to St. John’s.
Makes sense. I figured this was coming at some point. Kilpatrick is the best player left in the area uncommitted and he wants to be close to home; St. John’s doesn’t have a great class coming in and they’re the best big-time program around. They’re a perfect match.
When I got home, Theo Rabinowitz of NYCHoops emailed me a link to the story he’d just posted on Kilpatrick committing, citing a source, and that he’d likely go to prep school first. Again, it all added up.
Then I called Kilpatrick.
He sent me a text back denying that he had committed and that it was all just a rumor. Perhaps he doesn’t want everyone to know just yet. Perhaps it really isn’t true.
Adam Zagoria (aka the Zagsblog author) posted a response tonight from White Plains coach Spencer Mayfield, who said “It’s pretty close, but not yet.”
I tend to believe the rumor and expect Kilpatrick to end up at St. John’s (after a year at prep school). But, to say the least, the Kilpatrick recruitment has been a windy road.
———————————————
I mentioned a few local basketball players competing in AAU and had another tidbit to pass along.
Matt Grossbard of Pearl River is having a solid summer playing for New Heights AAU. He’s the point guard on a team that includes several players from Rice, St. Anthony’s and Molloy.
In the GymRat tournament in Albany this past weekend, he guided the team to a 4-1 record, highlighted by a 24-point performance in Saturday’s game. He led the team in scoring three times.
Grossbard is currently being recruited by several Ivy League and Patriot League schools. His recruitment could pick up in July when he attends the Reebok Proving Ground Camp in Boston on the 7-8th. He’ll also participate in a few other prestigious events.
—————————————-
The Empire State Games scholastic team will be holding an additional day of tryouts on Wednesday, June 4 at North Salem High School at 6 p.m.
They’ve already held three days of tryouts. The fact they’ve scheduled a fourth and are opening it up to everyone leads me to believe there are plenty of spots still up for grabs.
To tryout, you must fill out a form, which is available on the Empire State Games web site. This year’s Games are scheduled for July 23-27 in Binghamton.
It’s unfortunate, but it appears a lot of the best players from the area have decided to play AAU over ESGs. That’s their decision. It’s just worth mentioning that all the players I spoke to on last year’s team enjoyed the experience, and felt a greater sense of pride representing the region than they anticipated.
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on Wednesday, May 28th, 2008 at 8:33 pm by Kevin Devaney Jr..
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Kilpatrick will be going to a new coach after he preps. Hopefully Mark Jackson will be running that Titanic and keeping the Metros best at home. Kilpatrick as a great signing for SJU, hes a solid scorer and has interest from many Majors. Most of SJUs signings have been getting interest from the likes of Mercy, Pace and New Haven.
Dillon Quinn, an Elmsford kid who started out at Iona Prep and is now at Trinity Pawling has given a verbal to BC. Hes listed as a top 100 player and Rivals has some footage of him on their site. Hes 6'7 270 and slim.
Kilpatrick never verbally committed to any body according to sources close to the situation. The artcile from Kevin's friends are inaccurate. Facts first fellas. Get the story direct from the kid or the coach ho is handling him. This is what is wrong with the bball system. Too many guys looking for an article without the facts. Kilpatrick will likely commited to a BE or SEC school in the coming weeks. Read nychoops.net.
Kevin,
You are trying to get so deep in this stuff that you are losing something. Some of your posts have been full of spelling and grammatical errors. I understand these are just posts, but don't lose any credibility that you may have by denigrating yourself. The SK article is a bust and is strictly rumor and conjecture. He can't verbal to anyone now because he doesn't know what is happening. Spencer doesn't know because he doesn't see him on a regular basis, and Spencer doesn't really care (trust me I know). You may speak to these so called authorities on basketball, but they are nothing more than grown men that really don't have a clue. Let's see some factual stuff up there. If you are going to respond to post, don't pick and choose…this site isn't that big where you can't respond to all (legitimate posts). Let's see your protectors…shouldn't say that, but they are on her.
beforreal,
Have you ever heard the saying "he who is without sin shall cast the first stone?" Your above post has a few grammatical and spelling errors as well- not sure if you noticed – no one would want you "denigrating yourself."
As people who follow basketball, most of us are interested in the happenings of Kilpatrick's recruitment – he's an excellent player. At no point in Kevin's post does he say this is a definite. All he did was report he heard from two sources affirming the commitment and one source saying it was premature. Sounds like a logical and balanced post/update to me.
Kevin
Opening it up to everyone? Isnt that the way its supposed to be in the first place?
I'm glad to hear that many players have wised up to Bill Thom and his little buddies… After screwing up the team last year(In our house), let him just take his Croton Harmon shoe-ins and go get their preverbial butts kicked up state.
ditto Hoops fan you nailed it
[...] St. John’s seems to be a little bit premature. Kevin Devaney explains the situation in his post, This and That on the Varsity Insider blog for LoHud.com and the Journal News. Kilpatrick, still trying to figure [...]
Yeah, a silver medal is really screwing up. Kevin, keep up the good work.
http://hsnewyork.scout.com/2/758274.html Article on mookie
Something may change, but last month, Sean Kilpatrick to St John's was a lock, if he became academically eligible. This came from a family member who would know.
beforreal,
I had to read your post five times just to get a hint of what you were trying to say. I am still confused, but I probably can figure out what you wanted to say. Next time, ask for some help before you hit the send button, and make a fool of yourself.
congrats to sean…would rather see him go to gw and play with tony!
KILPATRICK HAS REBUFFED RUMORS THAT HE COMMITTED TO ST JOHN'S.
CHECK WWW.NYCHOOPS.NET
Matt Grossbard is a very good player. I know Pearl River (Rockland) is not a powerhouse school, but Matt is very talented. I like the fact that he is playing on a very good NYC AAU team, and plays against some of the best talent in the area. He was good this year, but he will be a monster next season for Pearl River. I had a chance to see him play, and was very impressed. Good for him.
Mookie Jones played for The Shooting Stars in the IS8 tournament, and walked away with a 1st place trophy. Taran Buie from Bishop Maginn (Albany) has ventured down to NYC and made quite a name for himself. It's good to see these players show that there is very good talent outside of NYC, and the obvious Westchester areas.
Grossbard is a solid player, i just cant stand when he tries to get all buddy buddy with the refs during the game but whatever thats just me..he should put up big numbers next year cuz pearl river is going to be mediocre without mcguinnes who was their best player and mcmanus and putnick who really were the heart and soul of that team. i'll believe grossbard going d1 when i see it because mcguiness couldnt get any major offers and in my opinion he's a better player than grossbard..grossbard and ferrera (i think he'll be a senior) will have to carry whats left of the dead carcus that was pearl river's basketball team.
next year,
What will help Grossbard is what he is doing with his AAU team, New Heights. Some people feel that the AAU circuit is more important than High School when it comes to exposure. Especially if you are at Pearl River, a school which is off the radar screen. A good player in a small school, can compensate this by playing on a good AAU team.
You may have your feelings about Grossbard, but he is a very smart guy with his AAU choice. New Heights is the second ranked area AAU school behind Juice (Lance Stephenson and the rest of the Lincoln team). They are ranked ahead of The Gauchos, Metro Hawks, Panthers, and the Westchester Hawks. He could probably go unnoticed at Pearl River, but New Heights is a very exposed team, so he will get some really good D1 looks.
Pelham has got to be looked at next year as a threat in class A. Of their 6 main players who started 10+ games last year, 5 are coming back. Bratone and Highland down low are a huge combo that will do some serious damage. (6'5 and 6'6)
Jayden-
At this point do you see any section 1 team as a threat to Mt. Vernon?
Also next year New Rochelle and Iona Prep are scheduled for December- In your opinion if both teams are at full strength who do you see as the favorite?
IonaPower,
New Rochelle's JV was extraordinary this season, and I think the varsity will be good next year. They will be the team Mt Vernon has to get past in sect 1, because White Plains will have a down year. Poughkeepsie is always hanging around trying to pick someone off.
As for the New Rochelle, Iona Prep game, I can see it going either way. However, I do not want to run from your question, so if my money was on the line, I would pick Iona Prep in a very close game.
Jayden-
Interesting observation about the New Rochelle JV- I was under the impression that New Rochelle sustained some graduation losses that called for a rebuilding. I guess with White Plains and Scarsdale losing so much talent it probably will be New Rochelle as the only team that can make a run at Mt. Vernon.
The New Rochelle-Iona Prep game will be one of the better non league games in Westchester- Its too bad that they seem to only play each other in basketball- I know for a fact that the Iona Football program was looking for a game to open their season this year and unfortunately they were not able to schedule New Rochelle. They will play defending CT champ New Caneen.
IonaPrep,
Iona Prep, and New Rochelle are a no brainer rivalry, and every sport should have a game or match between the two schools.
Are there any shoe-ins for the ESG team already?
Does anyone know?
I believe PK next year will be an A school.MV should be a lock for AA but A next year will be extremely strong in hoops. Spring Valley, PK, Peekywood, Pear River and theres probably one or two that Im missing. Peekskill has a nice core returning and like with Cadell or the kid this past year, they usually have a solid player fall on their lap. Portchester might get a nice recruiting class as well( thats a joke)
I was updated on Kevin Parrom formely of St Raymonds. This is what I was told from one of the closest people to Kevin. Kevin was scheduled for a trip to Xavier University. His AAU team (The Panthers)was schedule for games at the same time, so he cancelled the Xavier trip.
Because of the cancellation, Coach Oliver Antiqua was very angry with Kevin, and started yelling at him. This went on for a few days. At one meeting the Coach grabbed Kevin, and Kevin swung and hit the Coach. The call to authorities was done by Oliver Antiqua, but he was later convinced to drop the charges.
There are rumors that the Coach Antiqua was too involved with Xavier, and there are qustions as to why he took the cancellation so personally. The CHSAA and St Raymond's are not too happy with how this happened, and Coach Antiqua is on the "Hot Seat". Omari Lawrence and other St Raymond's players are considering leaving the school.
so now kids are "big-timing" visits to atlantic 10 schools that are ranked top 25 in the country to play aau games. what a joke…again this is the problem with aau interfering with high school! anyone know what the salaries are these days for playing aau???
regardless of how personally involved the coach (antigua) was with xavier – it still doesn't justify throwing a punch. so what if he grabbed kevin – what you think that this the first time a coach grabbed a player, kevin should never have punched the coach.
where is kevin going to school next year or prep?
is antigua returning?
Riley Girl, Pok will be a A school in football not basketball next yr(they actually only been a AA football team for about 5yr if that , if i remember right they lost to Nyack for football and lost to mount vernon in the sec. finals in the same yr. i think 02 or 03). and yes they are going to be the second best team we have newro is down, i think with pk returning 3 out of five starters and devon whitikar and Dwayne clark getting better they may even be the team to beat.
CHSAA fan, do you have kids? There is no reason why a coach should be grabbing a kid in a situation like this. It was obviously a heated moment and in moment like this the adult has to do the better thing. Putting a kid in a position where he feels threatened is not the right thing to do. Unless my kid is outta control, I would rather an adult not touch them at all.Times have changed a lot , but I dont believe there was ever a time where an adult thats not ma or dad should get physical w/ a kid.
Most AAU coaches dont get paid at all. The elite coaches get some money and gear. "Sole Infleunce" is an excellent book about the roles that the sneaker companies play in college selection, AAU teams…..I was at most of the Nyack PK football games in sectionals. A few of those years PK had more talent ( the 5'8 QB WIlliams I think ) was real tough to stop.PK ran that spread offense and they gave the ball to the FB very seldom but every time they gave him the ball he would get 10 yards. At one of the sectional games PKs kicker missed like 3 extra points and a chippy FG to win the game.
rileygirl,
I thoughly agree with you. A coach should never put their hands on a player. That is one of the reasons why St Raymond's and the CHSAA are very upset with Coach Antiqua. Quite frankly, I never grabbed my own son that way, so I would not want any other adult to feel they have the liberty to do so.
The other problem is, what do other players and their parents think about the St Raymond's program? They just lost the 5th ranked NYC area player, and the 2nd ranked player (Omari Lawrence) is looking at his options. Furthermore, there is a bad buzz in NYC about St Raymond's, which can hurt their basketball program. Prior to this, St Raymond's was a ligitimate Federation contender for next season.
chsaa fan,
The news out of New York is that it's 50/50 that Oliver Antiqua will lose his job. If Omari Lawrence bolts, look for the Coach's chances of returning to sink to 0%. Kevin Parrom has not yet decided on a school.
chsaa fan,
I agree, Kevin Parrom, should have never hit the coach. He should have called his parents, who then should have met with the St Raymond's officials. I am sure they woild have pulled Kevin from the school.
Jayden-
This whole Parrom situation is unfortunate- The majority of the blame has to go to Oliver Antigua who needed to show maturity as the head coach to prevent this episode from escalating. He should know as a coach for a big time program that AAU games are big business- Also most kids are going to chose playing an AAU game over most things that happen during the course of a players life.
the fact that a division 1 recruit chooses to play in an aau game over visiting a top 25 team in the country is absolutely insane….no matter which way you put it.
aau is becoming such a downfall to basketball. and riley girl let's not get started on what certain aau programs do and give players – aside from the sneaker companies and college boosters!!! the kid was 100% wrong – don't care what anyone says. i know he has the rep of being a good kid/player, but he is a good kid that made a bad choice – period – it happens, and if he wasn't wrong they would have let him stay at st. ray's! im not even a fan of antigua but the fact still remains that the player punched an authority figure in the face. i can't believe that people are trying to say that antigua should have beeen the mature one – that is half the problem with why these kids do the things they do, b/c adults/parents never want to hold their kids accountable – punch someone when you feel your life is being SEIOUSLY threatened – but i don't think that was the case here.
HE PUNCHED A COACH IN THE FACE – AND PEOPLE ARE MORE MAD THAT ANTIGUA GRABBED HIM – ARE YOU SERIOUS!
did you ever think the situation got escalated b/c of the player being wrong? wow, so what he grabbed him- are you kidding me…look at all the crap that bobby night has done and he is the most winning coach ever on the planet – maybe we should start slapping kids around and they will get the point!. some of these kids today are little spoiled brat smart mouth's and they need to be taught to show some respect – because enough is not being done at home! bobby night smaked a kid in the face to make him look him in the eye when he was coaching him….so what, please put the liberal way of doing things to bed! you think hurley, calhoun, pitino, never grabbed a kid – what?
back 20-30 years ago, if you talked back to a teacher
(back then it was priests or brothers) in catholic schools, the priest / brother would slap the taste out of your mouth!
jayden.. if st. raymond's hires the right candidate they will be fine, they have to much of a strong tradition and alumni, but then again you never know…i heard that antigua will be ok though – should be interesting to see how it plays out!
I do know that Hurley has asked many of his players to fight. Out of respect to him, they declined.Coach Knight was fired for many incidents like putting his hands on kids, kicking kids. Not for berating that kid who called him " Bobby". CHSAAFAN, send your kid to a coach that wants to get physical with him, I wont and I pray that no authority figure ever tries to with my children. There is no doubt that there are plenty of kids today that are spoiled or get no guidance at home. It was the same way when I graduated almost 20 yars ago. I do know this, I have been in education over 10 years and I have been a Dean of a Jr High in the Bx. for 7 of them, kids only resort to violence like this when they have been goated, pushed or feel threatened. It is the ADULTS job to squash situations like this. Antigua could have gotten his point across after tensions had cooled. Seems to me like he wanted to get the last word and resulted to grabbing the youngster. Would it have been better if Parrom tucked his tail between his legs and let his coach manhandle him?
Seeing that Parrom showed some guts makes me want him to go to SJU more.
chsaa,
Remember, this is a Catholic School, and Kevin Parrom wasn't acused of stealing or sexual abuse. Parents choose private schools to keep their kids from violence, and to get a better education. Grabbing and verbal abuse are violent acts. If Kevin Parrom grabbed the coach and Mr. Antiqua punched him, how would you feel?
Any player has a right to cancel a trip. If his parents did not have a problem with what their child did, then why should anyone else. Is the Xavier recruitment dead? It was just originally just put back, but now I am sure it would be the last school Kevin Parrom would go to.
I have a lot of respect for the CHSAA schools, but I am shocked that anyone can only look at this, as only the fault of the Student. There is blame on both sides, but Coaches and anyone else, should not be involved in the college recruitment process, unless they are asked by the athlete's parents. Most coaches are an asset in this process, but only at the request of the parents.
I think there's plenty of blame to go around between both parties. Coach Antigua shouldn't have let it escalate to a point that a punch was thrown. At the same time, there just doesn't seem to be any justification why Parrom would punch his coach in the face – it looks like a very bad split second choice on his part. Unless Parrom thought he was about to be punched in the face, which sounds highly unlikely, there's just no reason to do it.
Anyone who has played competitive basketball has likely had a fiery coach get in their face at least once, likely many more times. The first reaction is not to punch the coach. The issue of what made Coach Antigua so particularly upset about this situation is hard to judge. Clearly, none of us know exactly what was said between the two of them. Antigua's being so upset in the first place could've likely been because he was disappointed in the kid's decision which Antigua felt was detrimental for Parrom himself. Antigua may or may not have been correct, most would argue he was right, so let's not jump to conclusions that Antigua being upset was for his own personal interests. St. Ray's hasn't sent a player to Xavier in at least 15 years in my memory. In fact there have been very few NYers at Xavier since the mid-90's. Its not like there's a pipeline from St Rays to Xavier that Antigua is personally benefitting from.
Let's also keep one thing in perspective; we all heard about Antigua getting in Parrom's face because Parrom made the very poor decision to take a swing at his coach. Most of us who aren't involved with inner city, big time high school basketball on a daily basis (practices/workouts/study halls) are likely a bit naive to how often a coach does get in a player's face. As was referenced above, its not a secret that Bob Hurley, Sr is not afraid to get in his players' faces occasionally, along with many of the other great coaches in our area. When you're coaching talented kids, many of whom come from challenging home environments who have a chance to get a college scholarship, a lot is on the line for the kids. Most high school coaches of top programs don't do it for the money or glamour, they do it because they want to help the kids and are invested in the kid's lives.
I, frankly, don't have a problem in general with a coach challenging a player to make the right decisions and occasionally getting in his face if he doesn't. Too many kids with a lot of talent make the wrong decisions. We on this blog usually point the blame at the people around the kid who don't guide him the right way – let's give some credit to coaches who are willing to stand up for what they think is best for the kid. I'm not saying that this situation with Antigua/Parrom is necessarily a perfect example, but I think its reasonable to say that the situation began as Antigua being upset with a kid for making a decision that Antigua felt was detrimental for the kid.
In response to Jayden's comment about a coach not getting involved in recruiting unless a parent asks him to – I don't think thats realistic or practical. If a college is interested in a player, the first two places the college coach will call is the HS coach and the AAU coach. AAU coaches tend to have a lot of sway with the players, but HS coaches almost always know the kids better – they see them practice everyday, see how they interact in school/teachers, know their grades better, etc. Parents are usually only involved when scholarships are offered and a coach is trying to sway a recruit. Jayden, you and I have both seen the majority of situations that the parents (often just the mother) has very little understanding of the college/recruiting situation. I for one would be far more comfortable with a HS coach who has sent a few D1 players to college every year helping out in the recruiting process than either a parent who doesn't know much about the process or who thinks their kid is one and done for the NBA.
It is the coaches job in many situations to be the father figure in a youngsters life. I dont know Parroms situation,however, I do know that of the 1000 kids in my school, 5% of them live with their fathers. Coaches are mentors, social workers, disciplinarians, guidance counselors….. Now that Hurley and a few other coaches have been mentioned. Im sure that if Hurley, Huggins, Calhoun or any of the other prominent( tough guy coaches) had a scrap with a kid, they would NEVER call the cops.Huggins encourages his players to yell back if they think theyre right and Im sure that if he and a kid were yelling at each other and he grabbed a kid that he would expect the kid to get physical.Mcguire punched a local kid ( Toone)during the final 4 , Im sure had he been hit back he wouldnt have called the police
Rileygirl,
I completely agree with you about calling the police. I don't begrudge Antigua for getting in his face a bit, but I think when the situation went south it was completely as poor a decision on Antigua's part to call the police as it was Parrom's to take a swing at him in the first place. The other part of that equation is that if Antigua didn't call the cops, he might've kept this situation quiet and had a chance to keep Parrom at St Rays. Now Parrom leaves and his job is in jeopardy for letting the situation get out of control.
In regards to one thing Jayden mentioned, I don't think the decision makers at St Rays are that moved by Parrom and maybe Lawrence leaving. There will always be more players for St Rays to groom into stars. Look at Loughlin, two years ago they lost Ebanks and few others, now this year they're back with the two best sophomores in the city and competing for a city championship. I think the issue of Antigua's job boils down to how he controls the program – if it is agreed that he is not doing a good job at running the program, then I think he may be out. Losing a couple players doesn't cost CHSAA coaches their jobs – losing control of players (Parrom's situation) may.
On a separate note, the statistics in your school are staggering! Only around 50 kids out of 1000 live with their fathers – that is the saddest thing I've heard in awhile.
Hoops, Fan,
Coach Antigua, grabbed Kevin Parrom first. There is no dispute to that. There are very rare occasions where a person has a right to grab another person. I would not be happy if someone grabbed my son, unless he was in the process of hurting himself.
As for your comment on parents and recruiting, I am shocked you would take that stance. There are many reasons for a athlete to attend a school. Sports is only one of them. Who has the right to make decisions for a student over their parent's desires. How about having all teachers and coaches decide how kids can live, and eliminate parents all together. I know that parents make mistakes, but no one can make parental decisions for a child unless a parent agrees to it. Did your kids have their teachers pick their college, and leave you out of the process?
As for your St Raymond's comment, yes they will recover. However, the NYC basketball community has rallied behind Kevin Parrom. Therefore, I bet that St Raymond's recruiting will temporarily suffer at the hands of some of the other CHSAA schools, until this is resolved. As reprted in the NY Daily News, CHSAA officials and St Raymond's are not happy with Coach Antigua. They know much more than you and I.
I do not know if Rileygirl's statistics are correct, but I will bet they are close. That is more of a reason for coaches and teachers to carefull. Some of these kids have seen violence for much of their lives, and they do not need trusted adults to put their hands on them. Kevin Parrom has very involved parents in his life, and is regarded as one of the nicest kids in NYC. If there was such a problem with Kevin missing a school visit, then the Coach should have called Kevin's father, and that is as far as his involvement should have been.
That might be too much. We have parent teacher conferences where a class of 30 kids will have 2-3 parents that show up. Usually the" good kids" and rarely with their birth dad.My schools on 142nd and Brook ave.There are probably stats out there that determine the # of birth dads at the home in this community. Not enough
Pok will be okay if they develop a bench. I also have heard a rumor that they have a new kid that is pretty good.
jayden you stated:
"Who has the right to make decisions for a student over their parent's desires. How about having all teachers and coaches decide how kids can live, and eliminate parents all together. I know that parents make mistakes, but no one can make parental decisions for a child unless a parent agrees to it. Did your kids have their teachers pick their college, and leave you out of the process?"
you take things to the next level saying to elminate parents all together – who said that and what the heck are you talking about. i agree with hoops fan, it is absolutely impractical for a high school coach not to be involved in the recruiting process. it is not about picking the school for the kid and telling him how to live and disregarding the parents, but ASSISTING & HELPING & GUIDING in picking a school for what would be in the best interest of the student/athlete of course with the parents consent!. a high school coach has to be involved with the recruiting process. he is with the player probably 5 days a week for 5/6 months a year at least.
the recruiter from college has to speak to the high school coach to find out the following…what kind of kid is he, does he practice hard, is he a good student, does he have an attitude, is he a team player, how is he in the classroom, etc…a parent can't honestly answer those questions – come on!
now obviously the parent has to be involved, but if a d-1 college recruiter calls the high school coach for info / input, and the coach says "sorry coach k the parents don't want me to talk or help with their sons college recruitment," that raises serious red flags about the entire situation!
and again, i am not a fan of antigua, but unless parrom thought his life was in danger or seriously threatened, he never should have punched him – period. i have heard of a lot worse then what antigua did, and the player didn't throw a punch…i am not buying what anyone on this blog has to say – coach's get in their players faces all the time and sometimes they attack them personally to help motivate them, it still doesn't give anyone the right to throw a punch. i do agree though that calling the cops was completely unecessary!
chsaa fan,
Grabbing a student is against the NYC Public School's policy. I may be mistaken, but I am sure that grabbing another person, is against NYC law. Even if the coach wanted to press charges, he would have a hard time, because he initiated the physical contact.
If Oliver Antigua did worst, what did he do? It's funny how you see no fault in his behavior. Getting physical, and yelling at a kid for missing a school visit smells funny to me. Especially because the kid's parents was aware of, and approved of the cancellation. Is this the first kid that ever cancelled a school visit? No. I haven't heard of any other coaches going ballistic over other school cancellations. This incident made national news.
What is the CHSAA policy on physical contact with kids? I read an article last night that the CHSAA and St Raymonds will not pursue disaplinary charges against Coach Antiqua. He coached in the St Raymonds, Lincoln game this past Monday. Omari Lawrence did not play.
Aren't the CHSAA schools suppose to have a better environment for their students than public schools. If not, maybe these kids would be better off in public schools.
Jayden,
You're reading way too far into my comments and deducting things that were not said. First off, I never said anything about coaches picking schools for a kid or making major life choices without the input of a parent. I simply disagreed with you saying that coaches should not be involved unless a parent asks – that is not possible in a practical sense. As CHSAA fan stated, the first contact a college coach makes when he sees a HS prospect is to his AAU coach or HS coach – the HS coach is usually always the one with the most input on the kid as a whole. That happens long before a college coach talks to a parent. You know the rules about how limited college coaches are from calling a player's home. Parents usually get involved once the recruiting process is under way and are certainly involved when scholarships are discussed. Regardless, the HS coach is involved and should be involved, they usually know more about the situation at a particular college than most parents do. At no point did I say that the HS coach should be making decisions for the kid, but assisting, helping and guiding is a good way to describe it.
I'm not excusing what Antigua did. I think it was a clear mistake to let it escalate to that point. Calling the cops really makes me question his integrity. My point is that in certain situations (as has been happening for the history of HS basketball) it is not inherently wrong for a coach to get in a player's face. Anyone who says otherwise is not that informed. Some coaches have a style of coaching that is not as in-your-face, some are more so. A lot is on the line for many of these kids…and coaches desperately want to motivate the kids to do the right thing. Look at the coaches mentioned above who are known for getting in their players faces (i.e. Knight, Huggins, Hurley Sr, Al McGuire) – you'd be hard-pressed to find four coaches who elicit more loyalty from their players than those guys. The players accept that these coaches want whats best for the player in the long run and respect the occasional confrontation. Now, not every coach who gets in a player's face is justified of course. Some coaches who do that are just over aggressive. I'm not a big fan of Antigua and am certainly less so today than I was a month ago. My point is that I wouldn't dismiss immediately a coach getting in a player's face. In this situation it seems overdone and a bad choice. Not every situation and coach is the same.
If you're trying to make an argument that NYC public schools have some safety advantage over catholic schools then there's a bridge in Brooklyn I'd like to sell you. This has nothing to do with basketball, but that is absurd. That argument is so unproven by any fact known to mankind its hard to discuss reasonably. Have you been in some of the PSAL schools recently…with the metal detectors, multiple armed security guards, stabbings, etc? You can show up to school with a knife at public schools and get off with a couple days suspension – it happens regularly.
I don't remember hearing as much from you when Lance Stephenson beat up a teammate in December. If that happened at a catholic school I would venture to say he would've been off the team immediately – regardless of who he is. Catholic schools, to their credit and to their basketball programs neglect, are more than willing to have a star player leave the school if there is any serious discipline issue (see Devin Ebanks, Ashton Pankey). To get kicked out of a NYC public school you may actually have to plant a bomb on school premises or worse.
I also don't know where you read me say that a school should be picked solely for the basketball program. I've said numerous times on this blog, particularly in discussions with you the importance of picking a school that works for the individual. Most D1 basketball players will have to get a job in the workforce after graduation (assuming there is a graduation) – picking the right school for the rest of your life is far more important that picking the best hoops program for most kids that aren't likely pros.
Hoops Fan,
I actually appreciate that you have dealt blame to both the player and the Coach. At least that shows that you are not coming into this discussion with a bias. They were both wrong.
Yelling and getting into a player’s face is sometimes necessary. However, any physical contact is not. I am not a Bob Knight fan, because he crossed that line many times. There are bosses that are screamers, but touching a worker is way over the line of excepted behavior. I guess that chsaa fan, does not mind a roughing up from his boss, as long as it helps him to be more productive. Getting into a player's face about a non St Raymond's issue is also going too far. Say what you have to say and then drop it. This went on for a week before it blew up.
My problem is with St Raymond's. I would be shocked if this happened at Stepinac or Iona Prep. You can't tell me that either of those school's Coaches would have made the national press with the same type of scenario. If they did, the School and the CHSAA should be quick to discipline everyone involved.
I do not like Lance Stephenson's attitude. He can be down right ridiculous on the court. However, when an incident is between a player and a Coach, it raises things several notches. If he beat up Tiny Morton without any physical provocation, I would hope he would never play another basketball game in his life.
If any school official physically, sexually, or mentally abuses a student, that student would be better off at another school. St Raymond’s is a religious (Catholic) school, which should be that last place this behavior should be tolerated. St Raymond’s and the CHSAA should have ended their relationship with both player, and Coach.
Jayden,
It will definitely be interesting to see what happens at St Rays. I think St Rays would definitely be better off finding a new coach to lead that program. St Rays with the program they have, that amazing gym, influential and generous alumni, I think that job would attract some big-time candidates. I actually heard a rumor that Jeff Van Gundy was thinking about taking that job several years ago before he went to the Rockets, after DeCesare left- very interesting.
Hoops fan,
I grew up in the Bronx, and most of my friends still live there. St Raymonds is a great Bronx institution, which is very important to everyone in that Borough. Their alumni is also great. No one is happy about St Raymonds making national news for that incident, because they do so much for the Bronx Community. I just did not feel that there would be closure if only one person was faulted. I hope that this is resolved properly. In the end, we both agree, that St Raymonds, does not deserve this kind of attention. Especially, because they have done good for so long.
jayden…
im over the antigua parrom thing. it's politically correct to say that antigua was partially wrong and i am not a politician. parrom punched an authority figure in the face after he was grabbed…give me a break! parrom is 100% wrong and that is why he was dismissed. this entire thing is so blown out of proportion and i think that is due to the fact that antuigua is not well-liked. what world do we live in? it is no longer a disciplined era of kids. people (parents / bloggers/ critics /fans) have way to much to stay about situations that they have never been involved with or ever will be. cry me a river that antigua provoked it – you can't be serious. this goes on all of the time and you don't here about it all the time b/c the student/athlete doesn't resort to throwing a punch.
p.s. jayden, once again you didn't respond to anything that i questioned you on.
i am a big bobby night fan and also a big bobby hurley fan…and they are both winners and the 2 best coach's of all time on any level….and guess what….they have had there moments of "putting their hands on kids!" – give me a break!
jayden i am going to take a wild guess here and say you are a democrat right?
CHSAA FAN, maybe Antigua was looking for a weapon that could do a lot of damage and Parrom got ticked. By your statement you support GW and the GREAT job hes done looking for these same types of weapons and getting youngsters killed daily.The economy is also booming as well. But thats probably Clintons fault. What does politics have to do with this?
chsaa fan,
I do not like Bob Knight. You must not read everything, because I said that already. Nice role model he is, by throwing chairs because of a basketball game. Aren’t officials authority figures, which Bob Knight is disrespecting.
One Republican friend of mine has a trucking business in Montvale NJ. He will be closing his business at the end of July. It is just not profitable anymore with $5.00 diesel fuel. He has been cutting his truckers hours for the past 5 months, and two of them are in home foreclosure. He has 10 truckers, and 3 office women, all with families, and all will be unemployed. I do not think my friend will be wearing Republican tee shirts around town.
This is a strange place for politics to show up but since someone mentioned it, this is the worst I have seen this country in 66 years. Four dollar gas. Three fifty a gallon to heat my home. Foreclosures, war. I am an independent. What are you chsaa fan.
jayden / riley girl
i think the country was a little worse in the early 20s and the 60s (just my opinion) and please don't bring up clinton, he cheated his wife which means he will cheat the american people (but go figure some people think he was great) maybe more presidents should cheat on their wives!!!!!
the problem today is that bloggers try and defend a teenage student/athlete for punching a coach in the face – it's absoultely insane and that is why kids are the way they are today – period!
jayden i am a big bobby night fan – he is a legendary coach no matter which way you want to put it and however he got his point across he did so in the most winning fashion ever!
rileygirl you stated:
"CHSAA FAN, maybe Antigua was looking for a weapon that could do a lot of damage and Parrom got ticked."
– yes i heard antigua had a basketball with spikes sticking out and he was going to throw parrom a real hard chest pass! – i hope your are not serious with that comment, antigua looking for a weapon – this is just getting crazy now – and i hope you are not blaming gw for youngsters getting killed daily – please tell me you can not be serious.
what is this world coming to!!!
so anyone know what prep school kilpatrick is going to….rashaad james – college or prep?
Lets stick to hoops and sports on this site. By reverting to the Ole Billy Clinton cheating on his wife I now see that not only your basketball/coach views are twisted.
chsaa fan,
Bobby Knight is the worst example of a person respecting authority. He disrespected officials, his school administration (Indiana) and the NCAA. I guess when one of his ex players gets upset with their boss in the corporate world, they can just fling a chair across the office. Maybe they can just grab a co worker by the neck to get their point across. Nice roll model Knight has been.
Your Bill Clinton comment was uncalled for especially since did not sleep with a male intern, or try to pick up a guy in the bathroom stall next to him.
It may have been worse in the 20's, but the man said 66 years, so the 20's don't count. The 60's? Be for real.
No word on Sean Kilpatrick or Rashad James.
bobby night is the perfect example of kids being disciplined and playing the game the "RIGHT WAY" and WINNING – PERIOD.
i just have different views then both of you – that's it,
i am done with the debates.
and yes the 60s and don't let me start on teaching history lessons now – just kidding!
p.s.
bush sucks, bill clinton is a dirt bag, parrom is 100% wrong,and st. raymond's should hire bobby night!!!!!!!
I hope that political aside is the last we see of it. I always thought it was polite not to talk about politics and religion in mixed company – we already have enough trouble agreeing about high school basketball…the last thing we need is to start discussing Israel/Palestinians, mandated national health care, etc.
While I certainly agree Bobby Knight has his faults – I think its tough to argue about what he does off the court. Sure he won games, but also consider his players have a loyalty to him that goes far beyond almost any other coach in the country. Coach Knight also goes above and beyond for his former players (see the guy Turner who was paralysed). When you take into account the graduation rates Coach Knight had throughout his career and the high percentage of his former players who went on to successful careers after basketball, its hard to knock him. The only person I think who is in his class in that measure is Dean Smith.
Say what you will about Coach Knight's style and behavior, but he got it done for his players off the floor just as much as he did on the floor.
Hoops Fan,
Bob Knight was not on an island with his players, there were millions of other people who saw his act play out on TV. Many younsters, saw someone bully players, officials, and many other people. It's not just about a few people, when millions are watching. Ask ex Hoosier Mike Davis how he was treated by Bob Knight after he took over his coaching job at Indiana. That is the worst treatment any ex player experienced by their college coach. What did Mike Davis do wrong? Was he not suppose to take the job at Indiana. Bob Knight still does not talk to Mike Davis.
It's funny how two Bob Knight fans can condone his behavior. Was he a winning coach? Yes. However, he is a terrible roll model, who acted violently, as well as out of control many times in front of the entire world.
Hoops Fan, your boy chsaa fan brought up politics, not me. I am still confused about what point he is trying to make. It doesn't seem as if he tought things out much, before going on his tirade. He also continues to only blame Kevin Parrom for the St Raymond's incident. That's his oppinion. However, I wish you can be as objective to chsaa fans as you are to everyone else.
Jayden,
I'm well aware that it wasn't you who brought up politics and I didn't say otherwise. I didn't defend Coach Knight's behavior, quite the opposite I've said it is out of hand at times. I think even Coach Knight would admit he goes over the top on occasion.
If I'm not mistaken, I don't think Mike Davis played for Coach Knight, just assisted him. If your one example of a former player not getting along with Coach Knight is the coach that succeeded him, thats not very strong. A fan of Coach Knight could line up literally hundreds of players who stand by his tough love approach w/ the utmost loyalty(i.e. Scott May, Quinn Buckner, Isiah Thomas, etc, etc, etc.). In fact, while I'm certainly not an insider the disagreement between Mike Davis and Bob Knight apparently is because of what Coach Knight viewed as a lack of loyalty on Davis' part. That could very well be overblown on Coach Knight's part, but that is the issue.
Also, I don't think Coach Knight's approach to coaching/teaching is to try to make himself be a personal role model. What kid would want to emulate coach Knight? Rather, Coach Knight's approach seems to reach a level of efficiency and discipline with his players that they can bring to any other pursuit in life – evidenced by his player's off the court successes. While I'm not dismissing his sometimes buffoonish behavior, I've never heard a single person say that Coach Knight's antics influenced any negative behavior by another person.
What loyalty. Knight got fired for assaulting a player.
A man can't get a promotion in Bob Knight"s world? Bob Knight would have rather seen someone else get the job at Indiana, rather than have a guy who was close to him advance his career. The concensus opinion in the NCAA is that Bob Kinght was embarrassing in how he treated Mike Davis.
Isiah Thomas hated Bob Knight for years, and was very affended by his tatics. I believe they have reconciled recently, but it was very known about the hatred Isiah had for Knight. Check this link, and read about Isiah's college years. You are too smart not to know about how bad Isiah felt about Knight. If you need more proof, I will post more.
http://www.answers.com/topic/isiah-thomas
I don't want to dump on Bob Knight, but he is the last Coach to bring up when both a player and Coach just assaulted each other. There are some very respected tough coaches in every level of sports. However, what Bob Knight has done physically to his players is shameful. None of them pressesd charges, but putting your hands on people is not a lawful act.
Please don't compare Bob Knight to Dean Smith , who is an example the way a human being should treat fellow humans.
Hoops fan and chsaa fan,
Here is a link of a blog on how other people think about Bob Knight. Very interesting.
http://blogs.suntimes.com/fullcourtpress/2008/02/bob_knight_resigns.html
Four observations
1. That is a Indiana blog which is incredible that coach Knight is not very loved.
2. Isiah hated coach Knight for a very long time.
3. I've seen Child Protective Services remove children from their parents for doing to their children simular to what coach Knight did.
4. Good winning coach but turned it into a circus in his later years. Very abusive and a bully which is unfortunate.
Hoops Fan and chsaa fan,
I forgot how bad Bob Knight treated his staff, and that he threw a flower pot at a woman staff member.
http://www2.indystar.com/library/factfiles/news/2000/05.html
Don't get me wrong, I love a fiery in your face coach, but how you guys can defend this nut job is puzzling.
Jayden,
As usual you have completely not addressed the main point of my comments. I have issues with Bobby Knight's behavior – no question about it – I think he has a terrible temper, can be a bully at times and I've not condoned his outbursts.
I actually read all three of the posts you used as your proof. Here is the info from the first post pertaining to Isiah Thomas' time at Indiana and Coach Knight…
"Thomas made All-Big Ten his freshman year and was named a consensus All-American as a sophomore. That year he led the Hoosiers to the NCAA championship game, where Indiana routed the North Carolina Tar Heels, 63-50. With 23 points in the championship match, Thomas was named NCAA tournament Most Valuable Player. Despite his All-Star performance as a freshman and sophomore, Thomas was not happy at Indiana. He and Knight clashed frequently. Finally, in 1981-
on the advice of his friend Magic Johnson-Thomas decided to leave college and apply for the NBA draft.If that is your idea of empirical evidence you've got to be kidding me. Yes, as an 18 and 19 year old hot shot Isiah Thomas had issues with Coach Knight. Yet, as an adult Isiah Thomas is not shy about saying how much he benefitted from Knight's tough love approach. Isiah Thomas' mom, Mary Thomas, has also been very vocal about how much she appreciated Coach Knight's discipline.
Your second link was to a blog at the Indianapolis Sun Times. A bunch of anonymous people were saying negative things about Coach Knight after he got fired (not all negative) on a notoriously hostile blog for Coach Knight. Is that supposed to be convincing data?
Your third link was to a Indiana newspaper with a one paragraph blurb that a former IU administrative assistant had said years after the fact that Coach Knight once threw a flower pot at the wall in her presence. I remember that report well…the woman had never made a complaint at the time and then happened to be suing the university.
Let's also get two fact's straight. Mike Davis did not play for Coach Knight – he went to Alabama, I believe. He was his assistant for only three years before taking over for Coach Knight. I don't pretend to know all that went on between Knight and Davis…I would venture to say that you don't know everything in that interpersonal relationship either. I'm realistic enough not to make judgments about why two people who I don't know, don't like eachother.
Secondly, Knight didn't get fired for assaulting a player. Knight got fired by Myles Brand for a verbal altercation with a student at IU. Knight thought the kid was disrespectful and supposedly grabbed his arm to express his point. Was it necessary to grab the kid's arm? No. Was it assault? Not at all. There is a much larger behind Myles Brand wanting Bobby Knight out than just that incident. Brand was new to the university and was on record was wanting to remove coach Knight. Incidentally, i don't know many IU people who would say Kelvin Sampson (who is a lovely guy) was such a great hire for IU.
I certainly don't agree with everything coach Knight did. I think a lot of his zanier moments were uncalled for and unnecessary. I have three main points; 1) coach Knight's players had a graduation rate above almost any major college coach in the country (including Dean Smith) – thats a fact, not up for debate. 2) Coach Knight's player's have had a disproportionate amount of success off the court after their playing days are over. 3) Coach Knight's former players have a tremendous amount of respect for him and a loyalty that eclipses most other college coaches.
Jayden, nothing you've said in any way negates any of my three points. Now, if you asked me if I personally would've liked to play for Coach Knight – I would likely say no. But think for a minute seriously about if you would've been better equipped for life playing for John Calipari, Kelvin Sampson or Bobby Knight? Also think about a kid who had less of an education prior to college than you. Would that kid have been better off after baskebtall playing for a Calipari, a Sampson or a Bob Knight? There is no question in my mind the answer to that question.
Knight never had a hint of NCAA impropriety. His players graduated 95% of the time. He won 3 national titles (all without cheating). His former players love him. His former player's were well equipped for life after playing for him. While there are certainly aspects of his behavior I'd like to correct, there are not many more positives any coach could have.
Also…
Jayden, while I don't agree with CHSAA fans equivalizing (not sure if thats a word) national politics into this HS basketball debate, I think its certainly reasonable to place the great majority of the blame in the Parrom/Antigua situation on Parrom. I don't happen to personally agree, but Parrom's actions are hard to defend. He is the one who threw the punch. period. You happen to know Parrom and his family, so its easy to get a little partial. I happen to think that Parrom and Antigua share some of the blame because it seems (I emphasis "seems" since I wasn't there) that Antigua got in his face over an issue that maybe wasn't worth getting in his face for. Regardless, Parrom should not have thrown a punch unless Antigua threw a punch at him first – which he did not. I think its certainly reasonable for CHSAA fan or anyone else think it was primarily the fault of the kid who threw the punch.
Aspects of his behavior? This man terrorized his own staff, and threw flower pots to intimitate elderly women, who were just trying to feed their family. How would you feel if that was your mother, wife, or daughter. I actually found some audio verbal tirades he made to his team. These were not motivational, they were personally aimed at degrating his players. In one two minute melt down, Knight cursed out his players, and used the F word at least 25 times. Some good coaches also curse. However, it was all about how the team was making him look, not about the program. I would have posted the link, but I did not know if Kevin would appreciate being responsible for some kid hearing profanity by way of this blog.
Every nut job in history had good qualities. You name them, and I can tell you how people liked them, still like them, and how they inspired their followers. Please explain to me how you approve of a man that bullied his adult staff? Some of them came foward to testify against him. Got another link for you. Now you can read how he threw a flower pots at elderly women. Would you still be touting Knight's accomplishments, if those flower pots caught one of those women in the head and seriously hurt them? I guess it didn't hurt them, so all they had to do is fear for their safety. No direct hit, so up on the pedestal Knight goes.
chsaa fan brought this up, and now you are carrying the baton. It is amazing that this topic came up because of an unfortunate incident at St Raymonds. How Bob Knight can be used to defend Oliver Antiqua, is beyond belief. As, I said before, a good fiery in your face coach probably is good for kids, Howevery, once you cross the physical line, everything goes out the window.
http://www.post-gazette.com/sports/columnists/20000917stan.asp
Hoops Fan,
Neither you or chsaa fan acknowledge that Coach Antigua put his hands on Kevin Parrom first. Therefore, both of you are not being fair.
Hoops fan,
Here is an article on the Kevin Parrom incident. The Xavier angle was left out of the article, because the family did not close the door on that school, and wanted to keep Xavier out of the paper. Kevin posponed the college visit to play on a AAU team that his Coach disapproved of. The college and AAU issue came to a head at the same time.
No one, including Coach Antiqua denies that the incident started when the Coach grabbed the player. You guys can't purposely leave the facts out.
http://lfballonhoops.blogspot.com/2008/05/just-short-note.html
http://lfballonhoops.blogspot.com/2008/05/just-short-note.html
Kevin,
Has anyone heard where Robert Johnson from Tuckahoe is going? I'm curious. He should have gotten a scholarship somewhere. He put up nice numbers this year.
Jayden,
Again, I actually read both of the links you posted above. The first link was a sport columnist writing a general column about Bobby Knight's firing in 2000 – is that supposed to be some sort of evidence? Its one guy's opinion and it only dealt with the firing, not his overall impact on his players. The second is a basketball blogger writing an account he heard from a source, who apparently heard it from Kevin Parrom's dad, who obviously got it from Kevin (in other words 4th hand information). One sports columnists opinion of Bobby Knight or a blogger's 4th hand account of the Parrom/Antigua incident is hardly credible evidence. Also, nothing was said in either link that proves your points at all.
First, I have from the beginning acknowledged that Antigua put his hands on Parrom first. You obviously didn't read or don't remember my earlier posts. You also might remember that I said Parrom and Antigua shared the blame for this unfortunate incident. Antigua shouldn't have grabbed Parrom and Parrom certainly shouldn't have taken a swing at him. period. Thats what I've said all along.
All I said in my earlier post is that CHSAA fan is entitled to his opinion. WHile I certainly appreciate your knowledge and fervor, you sometimes don't like to allow other people to have their opinions. CHSAA fan's opinion that Parrom is to blame for punching his coach is absolutely a morally defensible position. Most people would likely agree with that. My opinion is a bit different, I was simply defending his right to make a position different from my own – its how free speech works.
Also, you keep alluding to Coach Knight throwing a flower pot at an old lady. None of your links allege that. The situation that I remember is that in a rage, Knight once threw a flower pot at a wall in the secretaries' area – it wasn't even about Knight being angry with the secretary, it just happened in her presence. No one was hit by the flower pot and it certainly wasn't aiming at anyone. is that reasonable behavior on Knight's part? Absolutely not. The situation only came out year's later when the secretary was suing the university, so I don't know how seriously she took it originally.
My argument is not that Coach Knight shouldn't have been fired. An argument can be made for that, but I'm not making it. My argument is that COach Knight was a tremendously disciplined coach who got a lot out of his players on and off the court. His player's excelled at an unparalleled level among his coaching pears as far as graduation rates and success after basketball. You have yet to address the points I've made. Also, you conveniently didn't answer my question at the end of the post, so I'll ask it again. Let's take a kid who is at or below average academically going into college…would that kid be better prepared for life after basketball playing for John Calipari, Kelvin Sampson or Bobby Knight? The answer to that question is in my mind a "slam dunk" as Dick Vitale for Coach Knight.
If you disagree with any of the following, please let me know directly.
1) Coach Knight's 95% graduation rates.
2) Knight's former IU players having an unusual rate of success after basketball.
3) Knight's former players (including Isiah Thomas) having a tremendous amount of loyalty towards him. Of course I'm sure there are former players who don't love Coach knight, but the great majority of players attest to his importance in their life.
4) My choice of coach Knight ahead of other coaches like Calipari as better equipping a prospective player for life after basketball.
Hoops Fan,
There are hundreds of college coaches out there, yet you seem to mention only a few. John Thompson, Dean Smith, Mike Krzyzewski, Roy Williams, and many other schools and coaches have great graduation rates. All of those coaches are better human beings then Bob Knight, yet they still achieve on the basketball court.
Yes, everyone would agree that Kevin Parrom was wrong, and I am one of them. However, most people would agree that Coach Antiqua was also wrong. The only one that disagrees with that is chsaa fan. If you admit that Antigua put his hands on Parron first, then what is the point of qustioning the link I posted.
If every reported incident about Bob Knight is not true, then why hasn't he sued anyone over all the stories that were written. There are thousands of them. This is the era of lawsuits, and slander is close to being the #1 lawsuit. You are so eager to dismiss everything negative written about Bob Knight, yet he has never defended those accusations in court. Here are some more Bob Knight stuff. One link is a story by ESPN. No lawsuites were filed disputing any of the contents of either article. Maybe you should file one on his behalf.
http://www2.indystar.com/library/factfiles/people/k/knight_bob/knight.html
http://espn.go.com/ncb/s/knighttimeline.html
Every celebrity would make a newspaper retract a lie. It happens all the time or the paper gets sued. Its hard to defend bob knight. There are much better coaches out there who are not bullies. Anyone know how Brickhouse is doing.
Kevin Parrom made his visit to Xavier this weekend. Obviously the school had no problem with his prior cancellation.
Kevin Parrom tells NYCHoops today:
"Yes Xavier offered me, this weekends visit was great I had a wonderful time. The staff at XU are great, they always strive to make XU better each day. What caught my eye was the amount of success they had over these past seasons."
Jayden,
You and I must think somewhat alike because if you had asked me to name the four coaches over the past 30 years who accomplished nearly everything coach Knight did on and off the court, without his behavior issues I would've named Dean Smith, Coach K, John Thompson and Roy Williams. All four of those coaches (well maybe not Thompson) would tell you that Bobby Knight could coach circles around them in terms of X's and O's. Its not my assertion that Bobby Knight is the greatest coach of all time or was the best influence on players of all time. My assertion is that there are very few coaches who are in his class in terms of all the criteria I've mentioned above. There are 318 D1 coaches currently, there have literally been multiple thousands of D1 coaches over the 40+ years that Coach Knight was coaching. You and I can think of four that were in Bobby Knight's class as far as graduating his players, his players achieving success after basketball, no NCAA improprieties and winning. Four coaches out of multiple thousands is a quite elite class of men. I give Coach Knight credit for his accomplishments and his place amont college coaches. I don't excuse Coach Knight's poor behavior. I do agree it seemed to always be a result of a terrible temper, not a lack of integrity.
Jayden, all of your points criticize Coach Knights behavior, more directly his outbursts of temper. No one, not even his biggest fan would say Coach Knight was a choirboy. He was loud, abrasive, insensitive, brusk, vulgar, vitriolic, (etc. etc. etc.) – no one denies that. My point is that his good works, far outweigh the bad. The great majority of his former players agree with me. Most all basketball coaches of note agree w/ me. You seem to be hung up on the niceties, or lack there of, in his personality. Thats not his style. Keep in mind…every player that ever played for Coach Knight since his days at Army was well aware of what they were getting into with Coach Knights. Players voluntarily played for him and weren't deceived into thinking he was a meek, quiet guy.
Hoops Fan,
I guess we will always disagree on Bob Knight. My opinion is that he has done much more bad than good. It is a shame, because he could have been a good coach who graduates his kids without being so offensive to the people around him.
You did not comment on the Kevin Parrom, Xavier visit, which is the reason that Bob Knight and poilitics was even discussed. He went, and the school really wants him. You would have thought Xavier pulled their offer with the way Oliver Antigua acted. Now a great school like St Raymonds is involved in controversy, which was very unecessasary.
Hoops Fan,
Here is nychoops.com's top point guards in the past 5 years. What do you think?
http://www.nyhoops.com/new/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=149:nyhoops-top-10-point-guards&catid=35:high-school&Itemid=50
Jayden,
you're right, we will disagree about Bobby Knight. I think Knight's a great coach, who did a lot of unnecessary things that tarnished his reputation. Regardless of his antics, I think Bobby Knight certainly did far more good than harm both for the sport of basketball and for his players. Its my personal opinion that a coach who sells a player a bill of goods, uses him to improve the team, then four years later is left 30, 40 or 50 credits shy of graduation is a far greater offender to his players, university and fans than a guy who throws a chair 25 years ago or yells at officials/staff. Believe me, far too many coaches are guilty of the first offense.
As far as Parrom's visit to Xavier, I think thats great news. As you've said, Parrom is apparently a good kid – I hope things work out for him. It looks like he's already past this whole Antigua incident – I hope it doesn't hang over his head.
I looked over the top PG's list and its definitely interesting. I agree with the Top 7 names, though not necessarily the order, except for Telfair. Telfair was clearly the best, after him I think an argument can be made for the any of the other 6 to be #2. If I had to make a list it purely based on high school performance it would be:
1 Telfair
2 Levance Fields
2 Kemba Walker
2 Edgar Sosa
2 Ronald Ramon
2 Sundiata Gaines
7 AJ Price
8 Mike Coburn
9 Erving Walker
10 Japhet McNeil
*I would put Tony Taylor at the top of my honorable mention list…I hesitate to put him in the top 10 because I feel my own views might be biased. However, if you were to judge purely by one's play during their senior year I think including Tony in the top 10 over McNeil is reasonable, I give McNeil the nod because of his 3 years of work. I don't think of Truck Bryant as a PG so I didn't include him. Also, I think Chris Lowe is outstanding, but I don't think he showed it as much in HS as he has at UMASS, so I wouldn't think of him as a top 10 contender based on HS performance.
Hoops Fan,
I found a list of the D1 graduation rates for the major sports in the last few years. Some schools are terrible, but many schools have been very good, and many have done a better job than Bob Knight coached schools. He does not hold the patent on graduating players. If he did, he may get a pass on the terrible things he did.
http://stanford.scout.com/2/748689.html
I am glad you put Kemba Walker over Edgar Sosa. Edgar was a great HS player, but Kemba was a better point guard, and a better defensive player.
Kevin Parrom will go to South Kent Prep School in Connecticut.
Graduation rates can be variable numbers because using different criteria you get large swings, such as counting early entries to the NBA draft as non-graduating or transfers. Texas Tech wasn't on any of the lists I noticed on that site. The truth is that Coach Knight's graduation rates at Indiana were 90-95% (among the top handful in the country). The graduation rates at Texas Tech weren't as high, largely do to the fact that Knight took huge percentages of JUCO players. JUCO players usually show up a 4 year school so behind on credits that its virtually impossible for them to graduate in their two years. I will note though that Texas Tech's graduation rates nearly doubled under Coach Knight and his 29 year record of fantastic graduation rates speaks for itself.
How would you rate those top 10 pg's?
Hoops Fan,
Point guard? If you picked true point guards, then Kemba Walker and Mike Coburn would be very high on my list, even Chris Lowe ( I am biased too). Telfair was a shoot first, scoring guard, who had the most talent. Guys like Erving Walker would also be high on my "point guard" list. That's another debate as to who was really a point guard. Your picks seem fair.
NBA Fixed?
That's why I like HS ball. I always felt that the superstar calls were unfair. Jordan, and Bird got every call. I never forgot the Saramento, LA 6th game, or how Miami beat Dallas two years ago, with Dwayne Wade getting every call.
saying that bobby night has done more bad then good is just silly. and if that was the case why did espn have him as an analyst – which by the way he did a very good job! he is one of the best and most winning coach's on the planet – period! those are the facts.
chsaa fan,
Bobby Knight is an excellent analyst. I will give him credit for that. I wonder how you would feel if your Wife, Daughter, or Mother were harrassed by Knight. If they were, I wonder how they would feel after reading you sucking up to him.
Jayden,
Bobby Knight can admittedly be a jerk. However, no one is alleging that he's harassing women. Let's not take it to a level where it doesn't belong. Clearly his outbursts against players and other men is enough – saying he's harassing women is another thing entirely.
Hoops Fan,
A woman in the athletic department tesitified about Bob Knight intimidating her. I sent the link, but you don't believe anything written about him. There is enough information about what he has done to people other than his players. You bragged about his graduation record, and I sent a link showing that there were tons of coaches that have done better than him since he left Indiana. I believe you gave an excuse for him. There are many excuses that other coaches could use for their dismal performances also. Wow, you must be on this guy's payroll. You are very resourceful, so you know the good as well as the bad with Knight. One day he will write a book admitting everything, and you won't even believe him.